When It’s Not Just A Coup But A CFAA Violation Too
from the tic-tac-DOGE dept
The hazard with landing upon a legal solution that seems too good to be true is that it often is. So as you read this post it is important to keep in mind that I may have overlooked something, and there can always be defenses. Few things are guaranteed in law, and even in the best of times it is always subject to taking some unexpected twists and turns as it is applied to real life situations.
All that said, however, I think a colorable, non-frivolous argument can be made that Elon Musk, and everyone on his DOGE team accessing the federal government’s computer infrastructure, is potentially personally liable for violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA).
What follows is a high-level overview explaining how what Musk and his team are doing qualifies as a violation of the statute, and what the consequence of this violation should be. The argument largely rests on the fact that the access DOGE has demanded for itself is unauthorized because, per statute, there was no lawful power anyone in DOGE could claim for itself, or themselves, with which to demand it. Congress has control over whom the President can empower, yet here he has unilaterally and unlawfully empowered people outside of what the law Congress duly passed allows him to do. Which means there is no power that those he “empowered” can lawfully wield, and so the power they did wield to obtain access was unlawful. That unlawfulness made the access they obtained access “without authorization,” which they have then used to inflict the very sort of harm to America’s computer infrastructure that the CFAA exists to deter and punish.
Background
Although in recent years there has been more attention paid by Congress and regulatory agencies to the problem of cybersecurity, the unauthorized use of a computer is still mostly addressed by the original anti-hacking law put on the books: the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Congress passed the CFAA after President Reagan saw the movie War Games and became alarmed that we had no law deterring access to sensitive government computer systems. Congress has periodically amended the statute over the past forty years, which means that today it’s a bit of a kludge, but, for better or worse, it’s still a pretty powerful kludge. While concerns have often been fairly raised that it can be too powerful and target computer use that should not be deemed wrongful, here we are facing exactly the sort of attack on government computer systems the law was always intended to forestall.
Basic Offenses
There are a few types of offenses under the CFAA, but they basically all involve accessing a computer “without authorization,” although some of the offenses then hinge on what happened to any information acquired from that unauthorized access. For instance, 18 U.S. Code § 1030(a)(1) speaks to unauthorized access of a computer to obtain information protected by law against disclosure that is then willfully retained or communicated to someone not entitled to receive it.
[Whoever] having knowingly accessed a computer without authorization or exceeding authorized access, and by means of such conduct having obtained information that has been determined by the United States Government pursuant to an Executive order or statute to require protection against unauthorized disclosure for reasons of national defense or foreign relations, or any restricted data, as defined in paragraph y. of section 11 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, with reason to believe that such information so obtained could be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation willfully communicates, delivers, transmits, or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it
And Section 1030(a)(2)(B) applies to “[whoever] intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access, and thereby obtains information from any department or agency of the United States.” Meanwhile Section 1030(a)(3) speaks to “[whoever], intentionally, without authorization to access any nonpublic computer of a department or agency of the United States, accesses such a computer of that department or agency that is exclusively for the use of the Government of the United States.”
The DOGE bros’ multi-departmental rampage through the federal government’s computer systems, including those in the SCIFs containing classified information, as well as all sorts of other sensitive information including HR materials (OPM), Americans’ social security numbers (Treasury), and other information pertinent to national defense and foreign relations (USAID), seems to implicate all three. And it would seem to implicate it with the required mens rea, or criminal intent. There is little question, given all their tweets and other bloviation, that they knew what they were doing when they accessed the protected data described in the first offense, and in terms of those offenses that required additional intentionality it is not like they slipped and accidentally ended up with root access to these systems. We require intentionality because we are concerned with people accidentally finding themselves having committed felonies when they had intended no such unlawful act, which has been an issue with CFAA claims over “exceeding authorization.” But here there was no authorization to exceed. Instead here there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the DOGE bros deliberately sought to infiltrate these systems without any concern for whether they had any plausibly legitimate claim to be able to. Using “Trump is letting us” to bypass all law that would ordinarily prevent their actions, when Trump has no lawful basis to grant them that authorization, and ignorance of the law no excuse to forgive their reliance, makes their intrusion the intentional act the statute forbids.
”Without authorization”
Whether the DOGErs had authorization to access (much less manipulate) these computer systems is key to all three CFAA offenses discussed here. That question does not depend on whether they managed to somehow obtain login credentials. If just having login credentials were enough to count as “authorized” access then every hacker who managed to get hold of anyone’s login credentials would be “authorized,” and it’s pretty clear the law still thinks there is a problem when bad actors get access to systems they aren’t supposed to have by using credentials they aren’t supposed to have. What we need to care about instead is whether the DOGE dudes were authorized to have those credentials at all.
Although there is a lot we don’t know about what transpired in all these departments Musk and his minions penetrated to get those credentials into their hot little hands, we know enough to know that the answer must be no, because there was no one entitled to provide those credentials to them. Not any staff member, any more than they would have been lawfully allowed to hand the credentials to anyone who happened to walk by, and not even Trump. Despite what he seems to think, Trump is not a king; he does not have unfettered power. His power is constrained by law. And law does not seem to allow him to empower the DOGE team to do what it has been doing.
Trump’s argument appears to be that if he were the most powerful person who could do anything he wanted, he could send anyone on his behalf to do what he wanted. But the Constitution and statute are careful to make sure he is not so unilaterally powerful because Congress is entitled to the transparency and visibility it needs to be able to ensure that the power the President yields is in furtherance of the People’s will. It’s why Congress gets to approve appointments, and why Congress also thought to rein in advisory committees to make sure this very thing wouldn’t happen: that unelected people beyond the purview of Congress’s supervision couldn’t run rampant in conflict with it. Or, in other words, to prevent exactly what is happening from happening, with this ad hoc, illegally-staffed presidential committee destroying the infrastructure, departments, and policy that Congress has built on behalf of the people.
This question of DOGE’s illegality is still being litigated, so it may be a while before a court can render an official opinion on whether DOGE is truly acting outside the law, but a facial reading of the statute and relevant caselaw strongly support such a conclusion. And, if so, it should mean that all of Musk and his minions’ access to these computer systems has been “unauthorized” for CFAA purposes, since there was no way for it to actually have been authorized — not by any existing law, and not by Trump ignoring it.
Enforcement
And so it would seem that Musk and his team are indeed breaking the law, including this law, as much as it feels like they are.
But what is there to do about it? The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act is a criminal law, but the way Trump is also gutting the DOJ means there probably won’t be anyone there to prosecute it. And even if the DOJ could obtain a conviction, Trump could just pardon them anyway.
However, much to the annoyance of many civil libertarians that have, correctly, worried about how powerful the CFAA is, and how much reasonable behavior can get caught in its net, the CFAA has a civil enforcement mechanism. In other words, it’s not just the government who can go after Musk; regular people can too. See 18 U.S. Code § 1030(g):
Any person who suffers damage or loss by reason of a violation of this section may maintain a civil action against the violator to obtain compensatory damages and injunctive relief or other equitable relief.
There are however a few limitations:
A civil action for a violation of this section may be brought only if the conduct involves 1 of the factors set forth in subclauses [5] (I), (II), (III), (IV), or (V) of subsection (c)(4)(A)(i). Damages for a violation involving only conduct described in subsection (c)(4)(A)(i)(I) are limited to economic damages. No action may be brought under this subsection unless such action is begun within 2 years of the date of the act complained of or the date of the discovery of the damage. No action may be brought under this subsection for the negligent design or manufacture of computer hardware, computer software, or firmware.
The last part about the negligent design appears inapplicable, and for now we don’t have to worry about the statute of limitations, although it might be good for Musk and crew to know that this liability can hang over their heads for at least two years. We should also acknowledge that any damage claim is for economic damages only, but there’s a lot of harm that can get construed in those terms. It’s the first part that is most important to us, and usually CFAA civil litigation hinges on the first criteria listed, at 18 U.S. Code § 1030(c)(4)(A)(i)(I), which requires a plaintiff (or a group of plaintiffs) to have an aggregated loss of at least $5000 within one year in order to bring a lawsuit.
In this case however, some of the other criteria might also be relevant depending on the consequences of the DOGE boys’ breach of the computer systems, like physical injury, § 1030(c)(4)(A)(i)(III), a “threat to public health or safety,” § 1030(c)(4)(A)(i)(IV), or “damage affecting a computer used by or for an entity of the United States Government in furtherance of the administration of justice, national defense, or national security.” § 1030(c)(4)(A)(i)(IV). Offhand I don’t know of a case where private individuals have brought cases asserting standing on these grounds — it’s possible there are some, although those terms may mostly be in the statute for government prosecutorial use — but we’ve also never been down a road quite like this before.
Damages
Even if the standing needed to sue hinges on the need for there to be at least $5000 in damages, the math suggests at least one lawsuit could be brought. Because even if the only damage any individual could incur is what it costs for credit monitoring, there are so many individuals affected that the amount of aggregated harm would easily exceed $5000. Given that the OPM hack of a few years ago led to federal employees getting a few years’ worth of credit monitoring, we understand that incurring such a cost is a reasonable harm that can be measured in economic terms.
While no one particular employee might incur enough on their own to reach the standing threshold, even if it only cost $10 for a year of it, it would only take 500 people to reach it. And we know there are far more than just a few hundred people affected by these breaches. At minimum there are over 3 million federal employees made vulnerable by the OPM incursion, and more than 70 million social security recipients affected by the incursion at Treasury. Even just looking at credit monitoring costs, at $10 a pop for just a year for everyone, damages are approaching a billion dollars, and these populations and amounts are just the tip of the iceberg.
Given how deep their infiltration has been into so many systems, across so many departments, affecting so many people, by revealing to them information that is so sensitive, the damage tally is likely to be enormous. For instance, with the DOGE vandals mucking around with the Treasury department, risking salaries and all sorts of other payments, there is almost no limit to the economic harm they could do.
And that’s not even the worst of it. The information compromised by their intrusion into the OPM and USAID systems includes intimate details of foreign service workers often stationed in unfriendly areas or in areas targeted by our adversaries. Their access has already jeopardized the security of many, and it will cost them a great deal to try reclaim it. But that measure of cost is but a fraction of the harm that will accrue if they or their loved ones ends up injured or killed as a result of Musk and DOGE.
We really don’t even know yet what the full fallout of the Musk intrusion will be, or how heavy the cost. Only that it must be his and his team’s to bear.
Deterrence
In addition to damages, the CFAA also allows for injunctive relief. Pursuing it could be a way to stop this madness. All it should take is one lawsuit (or at least one lawsuit per department infiltrated) to cause a court to order Musk and Co. out of the computer systems and bar them, under threat of contempt, from disclosing any of the information they gleaned from being in them. (It would also help the outraged public hold onto the belief that law matters, and that what they are seeing unfold is wrong and that people actually care to stand up to it, which can then in turn help them and others stand up to it too.) True, if the Muskers do not obey, we will have a new Constitutional crisis on our hands, but if they do ignore it, and the public sees them ignoring it, then the public can decide what to do about that attack on our democracy. The point with this post is to suggest there is something that already can be done with regard to this attack on our democracy too.
But short of a court telling them to stop, it would be helpful if they did it on their own. And even threatening a plausible CFAA lawsuit could spook them into stopping once they realize that they might face a consequence for what they’ve been doing, and quite a consequence at that. Maybe it won’t spook Musk, who can readily afford lots of lawyers and nine- or ten- figure damage awards — although given the number of people he has affected, he has potentially enough litigants with enough damages to be flirting with damage awards with that many digits (or more). But it seems unlikely that anyone else on his team can afford to pay anything close to the damage bill they tempt, or all the lawyers they would need to fight off all the lawsuits that now nearly everyone could bring, even if in groups of a few hundred at a time.
And if anyone from DOGE tries to use DOJ lawyers to defend themselves, it will just increase the theft from the public and be something else for the public to challenge. Which gets into why the DOGErs may think they are immune from all consequence: that they are from the government and protected by that position. But they have no position! The same thing that makes their access unauthorized — that they are not duly authorized federal workers or officials acting under the color of offices, which don’t exist, and which could not lawfully exist on these terms that they have claimed their fictional authority (if nothing else law requires us to screen candidates before giving them access to such sensitive systems) — is also what likely deprives them of all the immunities and protections that could potentially apply to those positions. The law should treat them like the private citizens they are, engaged in activities that no private citizen can lawfully engage in, because, again, Trump did not do, and could not do, anything needed to change that status and authorize this behavior (in fact, reports are that at least some of the vandals don’t have any federal job at all, let alone one that would allow for this activity). And being private citizens means they lack the protections of officials engaged in official functions because there is no way that what they are doing can be construed as official.
Perhaps they might get lucky and some court might see things their way, but given the enormity of the potential damage amounts they might be on the hook for, expecting such an outcome would be quite the gamble. Perhaps they think that they are somehow protected by Trump and so can do whatever they want with these systems with impunity. But as long as they don’t control the courts, and have assets in states that would be willing to enforce judgments against them, they aren’t nearly as protected as they think.
Filed Under: cfaa, doge, donald trump, elon musk


Comments on “When It’s Not Just A Coup But A CFAA Violation Too”
Nothing a blanket pardon can't handle
Why would Musk or his team of teenage computer wizes ever worry about any federal offenses?
Re: Um, no
Did you read the post? A pardon won’t help them.
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Re: Re:
No pardon is needed cuz no one broke any laws, your fever dream fantasies aside.
Re: Re:
Who’s going to charge them with a crime?
The DNC is too busy reciting poetry at the facists.
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Re: Re: Re:
*”fascists”
You guys are funny
Re: Re: Re:
The post is specifically about civil actions, not criminal. Hence why it can’t be pardoned, and why it can be brought by individuals instead of DOJ. This is literally explained in the article.
Re: Re: Re:2
To be fair, the article first says “And even if the DOJ could obtain a conviction, Trump could just pardon them anyway”, and it’s not immediately clear that the rest of the article is meant to contradict that.
It also says “damages are approaching a billion dollars, and these populations and amounts are just the tip of the iceberg”—but it neglects to mention that “a billion dollars” is something Musk has over 400 of, or to try to describe “the iceberg” in full. Trump doesn’t have nearly that much money, but does have full immunity to civil suits. “Executive officers” and “Presidential aides” have some immunity too.
How many BestNetTech stories have we seen about how hard it is to civilly sue a cop, even when they kill someone for no discernable reason? Is it really fair to expect things will go any better here?
Re: Re: Re:3
The reason it’s hard to sue a cop is because of qualified immunity. But, as the second to last paragraph points out, these aren’t federal workers or official operating under dolor of office – they don’t have that immunity
Re: Re: Re:4
You and Cathy are more optimistic than I am. Their lawyers will probably come up with a dozen ways “that what they are doing can be construed as official.” One of those might stick, especially if the case goes to a Trump-appointed judge.
Re: Re: Re:4
The referenced paragraph says “color of office”, but I’m not quite sure whether “dolor” is a typo or a clever pun. It apparently means “Anguish, grief, misery, or sorrow” or “In economics and utilitarianism: a unit of pain used to theoretically weigh people’s outcomes.”
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Re: Re:
Who’s going to charge them with a crime?
The DNC is too busy reciting poetry at the fascists.
Re: Re:
FWIW, I’m not sure the average reader knows the president can’t pardon a federal civil suit.
Re: Re: Re:
I’m not sure the president knows it.
Re: Re: Re:
No one can pardon a suit. This isn’t even a valid construction in the English language, never mind in law. (In this sense. i’m sure much hilarity can be had with rotating meanings for the words.)
You can only pardon a person after conviction. And the conviction doesn’t go away.
Re: Re: Re:2
This is exactly why someone found to have been wrongly convicted should never be pardoned. Instead, their conviction should be quashed.
CHUDs won’t care until it personally impacts them. When it personally impacts them, they’ll blame Obama.
Re: Not him
As I explain, they’d have to blame Reagan.
Re: Re:
You may or may not have noticed, but American conservatism has always operated via scapegoating. See: the Confederacy, the fight for civil rights, basically every human rights issue ever to present itself in the US.
They should blame Reagan. Their talking heads will convince them it’s Obama’s fault.
Re: Re: Re:
Not that it will take much convincing. They’ve got ready-made excuses to blame minorities.
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No, it's not.
Trump can give anyone he wants to any computer system in executive branch. He literally just has to say “it’s OK”. I’m not sure the CFAA actually tries to say the president can’t do that, but if it does, that just makes it an unconstitutional breach of the separation of powers. This is the same reason Trump didn’t have to give 30 days notice before firing IGs. Congress passed a law saying he does but the law itself is unconstitutional. (Trump isn’t even the first president to do that)
What Musk is doing is lawful, authorized, and constitutional. Stop feverishly trying to imagine reasons why it’s not just because you don’t like what is happening. (I do)
The solution to not having this happen was to win the election. You didn’t. This is democracy in action.
Re:
By your own admission, you’re not a lawyer, and also by your own admission, if one is not a lawyer, one is not an expert on law.
So take your own advice and shut the fuck up about pretending to know anything about the law.
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Re: Re:
I’ve already corrected you on this twice today, I won’t be repeating myself further.
Re: Re: Re:
You’d just be wrong three times in a row which is nothing new for ya princess tiny dick.
Re:
You are getting ahead of yourself in your excitement about your little history reenactment. We are just replaying the scene where Hitler has been named Reich Chancellor. It still needs a parliamentarian act to name him Führer and suspend the constitution.
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Re: Re:
Your victimhood fantasies are not an argument.
You called Trump a nazi for 8 years and all it did was make you look stupid. It’s not any different now.
Re: Re: Re:
Honestly outside of other you and reek. I’ve never seen a Dumbshit more sure of themself. You’re like if Dunning-Kruger and meth had a baby and left it in the care of a couple of emotionally abusive trailer trash cousin fuckers.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Dunning-Kruger is just ad hominem for liberals who think they’re smart but the best they could manage was a liberal arts or soft science degree.
Re: Re: Re:3
Hun thats not what ad hominem means. The words you were looking for is “is just a fancy way for liberals to condescend to their lessers.”
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Re: Re: Re:4
It is, actually, what ad hominem means, cuz they’re attacking the person and not the argument. (I agree that ad hominem is not simply an insult) They are saying that you’re a dumb person who doesn’t know what you’re talking about, therefore are wrong, which is ad hominem.
You d@amn reeeeeetaaaard (not ad hominem)
Re: Re: Re:5
Explaining to someone how calling them stupid is ad hominem, then calling them stupid and saying that isn’t ad hominem is extra moronic, even for you.
Re:
Why you so mad about winning bro?
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Re: Re:
who’s mad?
Re: Re: Re:
You are, given the way you’ve been lashing out at everyone since Trump won the election.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Me calling you stupid is not me being “mad”. That is me making an accurate and fair assessment.
Re: Re: Re:3
It kind of is, though. So is using the R-word on a near-daily basis, “gloating” about how much you’re “winning” in ways that sound like you’re legitimately angry about Trump winning the election, and admitting that you hate this site and the people on it even while you keep coming back to it because of some psychological obsession with dragging people into your emotional support reality where you’re always right about everything ever and everyone else is wrong. You’re so mad that you’ll probably end up replying to this comment three times just to prove how not mad you are. You’re so mad that you’re a fucking dril tweet.
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Re: Re: Re:4
reeeeeetaaaaaarrrrrrd
Re: Re: Re:5
You call practically smell the impotent anger and flop sweat from here.
Re: Re: Re:5
I rest my case, Your Honor.
Re: Re: Re:3 Crybitch throws another fit.
All you do is cry and bitch. It’s your thing.
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Re:
Well said, Sir. Appreciate your insights.
Now, more than ever, it’s important for your voice to be in the comments here.
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FOIA
Most Americans like the idea of transparency in government. The idea that you are not permitted to see and track where your tax dollars are spent makes you anti-democratic.
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Re:
“How dare you expose our corruption! That must be a crime……somehow”
Re:
Yet listing the name of a Musk lackey is considered a criminal offense.
Literally you yesterday claimed that it was “doxxing” (it’s not) to NAME A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL who has access to change the code on the system that handles all US payments.
Re:
I don’t believe I’ve ever witnessed you switch sides of an argument for convenience this quickly before.
Is it doxxing, or is it transparency?
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Re: Re:
No one is doxxing anyone.
Why are you ret@arded?
Re: Re: Re:
And yet, Elon Musk—who is now officially a part of the federal government—recently deleted a post from Twitter that named several other members of the federal government who were working with him.
Which one was that list of names: doxxing or transparency?
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Re: Re: Re:2
I’m not sure that names, by themselves are a problem (though there sure were a whole lot of death threats, d@mn you people are hateful), but doxxing is bad, and no, that’s not the same thing as “transparency”.
Re: Re: Re:3
And yet, you were on articles yesterday claiming that Musk had every right to delete that post and that it violated TOS and that it was, in effect, doxxing. Man, between revealing that you’re forced to use leetspeak to swear, being unable to counterclaim facts with anything but “nuh-uh to your uh-huh”, and now this level of flip-flopping to defend Musk, you’re just a bucketful of luls today. What else you got, son? Make it good—I’ve got a couple of Tom Cardy songs queued up on Spotify, so you better be funnier than “The Ballad of Smokin’ Joe Rudeboy”.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Musk can delete whatever he wants on the platform he owns. MM was arguing it was a 1A violation, which it absolutely was not.
I am not obligated to agree with everything Musk does.
Make what good? You don’t even understand the argument you’re having.
Re: Re: Re:5
Why you so mad bro?
Also, hold onto your butts. This is the sort of disaster that unfolds slowly at first, and then all of a sudden.
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BTW, you know two of your links are broken?
“Illegally staffed” and “being litigated”. The first isn’t true so I was actually curious as to the argument.
Re:
Delete the quotation mark at the end, Einstein.
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Re: Re:
THE LINKS ARE BROKEN DUMB@ASS
Re: Re: Re:
…says the guy who can’t even spell “dumbass” right.
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Re: Re: Re:2
MM’s algo censors the comment anytime I use certain words, M0R0N. I’m misspelling on purpose.
Re: Re: Re:3
lmao you have to use leetspeak to swear
that’s funny as fuck, not gonna lie
Re: Re: Re:4
This is actually better than an outright ban. I hope Mike tunes the filter until Matty can only speak in hieroglyphics.
Re: Re: Re:5 This chance was too good to pass up.
CURSE OF MIKE MASNICK 𓀀 𓀁 𓀂 𓀃 𓀄 𓀅 𓀆 𓀇 𓀈 𓀉 𓀊 𓀋 𓀌 𓀍 𓀎 𓀏 𓀐 𓀑 𓀒 𓀓 𓀔 𓀕 𓀖 𓀗 𓀘 𓀙 𓀚 𓀛 𓀜 𓀝 𓀞 𓀟 𓀠 𓀡 𓀢 𓀣 𓀤 𓀥 𓀦 𓀧 𓀨 𓀩 𓀪 𓀫 𓀬 𓀭 𓀮 𓀯 𓀰 𓀱 𓀲 𓀳 𓀴 𓀵 𓀶 𓀷 𓀸 𓀹 𓀺 𓀻 𓀼 𓀽 𓀾 𓀿 𓁀 𓁁 𓁂 𓁃 𓁄 𓁅 𓁆 𓁇 𓁈 𓁉 𓁊 𓁋 𓁌 𓁍 𓁎 𓁏 𓁐 𓁑 𓀄 𓀅 𓀆
Re: Re: Re:6
That looks like “The Dancing Dragon” from A:TLA.
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Re: Re: Re:4
I agree purely because the TD word filter requires you to be more creative than just calling people whatever reddit tier insult first pops into your head.
Stephen, if Trump goes insane and starts trying to engulf your nation in nuclear hellfire, please come to Australia. You’d like it here. You can rent out my room and we can laugh and eat vegemite and get free healthcare together.
Re: Re: Re:5
Please go fuck yourself with a rake at your earliest convenience.
Re: Re: Re:5
You can always migrate to Texas they got shit tons of goats to fuck.
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Re: Re: Re:6
Sorry man apparently it’s rakes now.
Re: Re: Re:3
Bragging about losing to the spam filter.
Masterful gambit sir!
Re: Re: Re:
Tell us how much you don’t care again bro!
Re: Re: Re:
I just told you how to fix them, genius.
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Re: Re: Re:2
I see that now, thank you. It’s still fundamentally a broken link.
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Invalid argument
When the URL linked here is fixed it goes to a bluesky post that says:
Funnily enough, the press secretary not mentioning a security clearance doesn’t mean there isn’t any.
Musk has had top secret clearance for years. Trump can issue any clearance to any of his DOGE workers that he wants, so of course they have clearance.
All your arguments are so terrible.
Re:
Absolutely nobody being able to point to a clearance does waggle its eyebrows suggestively.
Re: Re:
You could even say the silence is deafening.
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Re: Re:
HOW ARE YOU THIS DUMB?
They have the security clearances.
Re: Re: Re:
Presented without evidence, dismissed without evidence.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Musk has had a Top Secret clearance for many years, and the press secretary is not obligated to pre-emptively tell you who else does.
You’re just an idiot.
Re: Re: Re:2
But isn’t the original assertion being baseless all the evidence you need to dismiss it?
Unfortunately Not
While the theories laid out here I like for their creativeness & novelty, unfortunately I don’t see this as any legitimate/viable route in the courts. There are 3 primary issues I think it has.
The first is that all these computer systems are technically executive branch agencies which means Trump as president does in fact kind of have the ability to authorize anyone he wants since he is the head of the executive branch. Particularly given that Supreme Court ruling on presidential immunity as actions/decisions regarding executive agencies would clearly be within the exclusive power of the executive branch.
The second is the theory about damages to person(s) for civil suits. While obviously if someone were to suffer direct harm from this action it would provide standing, but the broader theory in regards to the abstract harm to everyone involving credit monitoring services for protection I seriously doubt would grant standing. The same issue prevented standing when the Snowden leaks came out in a few lawsuits, at least one by a rather prominent group of individuals, claiming these actions as rights violations would likely be used here. Some general precaution of people getting credit monitoring services because of Musk & Co. accessing these systems would be unlikely seen as actual harm it caused without there being some associated circumstances [such as the data being used by actors that caused harm to someone leading to them using such a service.]
Finally, there is also the issue that laws & courts are not actually some objective, neutral arbiter interpreting the laws as they are written & as construed by precedent. Ultimately judges can make whatever decision(s) they want to on cases with the only check on them being higher level courts until it comes to the Supreme Court which has no checks or limits on what it does. And, even if a lower court was found which allowed a lawsuit(s) such as this to proceed I have no doubts that, at the very least, the Supreme Court would step in & stop it. Even in cases where there was some actual individualized harm, then the government could simply provide the restitution to those instances to prevent any grounds for a lawsuit existing [i.e. pay for credit monitoring services in a scenario like you laid out.]
There are really only 2 checks on things done by President [or done with his blessing by people,] & those are Congress or the Supreme Court. Congress can remove a president by impeachment, but even the Supreme Court is only a quasi-check that relies upon the president abiding by a Supreme Court ruling. If they were to just ignore it then it reverts again to Congress to remove them.
Re:
It honestly all comes off as cope from people who want to believe there’s still legitimacy somewhere in our government despite all evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Re:
The duly authorized contractors are undertaking work the president was elected to see done.
It’s legitimate af.
Re: Re: Re:
In the same way the Nazis were “legitimate.”
Re: Re: Re: But they're not...
They’re not “duly authorized.” That’s the problem, and why they are likely liable.
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Re: Re: Re:2
They are in fact authorized. That’s why your article (your second about this!) is such a waste of space.
Trump authorized them. Yes, he is very much allowed to do that. This is all perfectly legal, and the result of democracy.
You are making things up to pretend they are not authorized but they are. No matter how much you wish they were not, and you just kinda sound like an idiot claiming otherwise.
Re: Re: Re:3
Why you so mad bro?
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Re: Re: Re:4
Democrats are trying the lawfare strategy when they lost an election again, bro. Kinda banana republicish.
Re: Re: Re:5 Crybitch throws yet another fit. NEWS AT 11!
You know when you arguing with every single person on the forum except the goatfucker and reek. Maybe you’re the one with the problem bro.
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Re: Re: Re:6
It’s a forum full of far left crazy people, I’m aware.
Re: Re: Re:7 Pattern recognition isn’t your strong suit
Ams it weird how you lose every single argument with said crazy people and throw a shit fit, every single time.
Re: Re: Re:3 Maybe...
In the United States Code that you’ve imagined maybe Trump can do this.
But per the US Code here on this plane of existence, he cannot.
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Re: Re: Re:4
“US Code”?!? It’s in the fuucken constituion, dumb@ss.
Re: Re: Re:5
Cite the clause, then.
Re: Re: Re:2
God bless you. It’s really not fair that women have to keep being the ones to show compassion to absolute monsters.
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Re: Re: Re:3
lol, wut?
Re: Re: Re:4
THEY SAID, “GOD BLESS YOU. IT’S REALLY NOT FAIR THAT WOMEN HAVE TO KEEP BEING THE ONES TO SHOW COMPASSION TO ABSOLUTE MONSTERS.”
Re: Re: Re:5
It’s quite telling that he doesn’t get it.
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Re: Re: Re:6
what do women have to do with it? Are the monsters in the room with you right now?
It’s telling I don’t “get” your hallucinations?
Re: Re: Re:7
JFC Matty, this is embarrassing. We knew you were stupid, but so stupid you can’t understand what’s being said here?
I mean, that’s a new level of stupid. A Bennett level of stupid, I guess.
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Re:
Basically ^^^this except instead of “unfortunate” I see it as good.
DOGE is legal and authorized, and ultimately, necessary.
Re: I think you'll find...
That I addressed those concerns. Sure, one never knows. But it’s a plausible claim that can at least get through the courthouse door and even survive dismissal. That alone makes it an important tool to use.
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Re: Re:
Well no, but you pretended you did. It’s just made up nonsense tho.
No.
Seriously, coming up with creative legal theories on how you can pretend the election you lost didn’t happen is not a good look. Ironic, I know.
Re: Re: Re:
Seriously why you so mad bro?
Re: Re: Re:
I have seen nothing suggesting a belief that they didn’t lose the election. The arguments (which you ignore and do not actually respond to) are not about the election, but the actual illegal conduct of people within the executive branch, violating multiple laws.
You seem to be acting under the belief that the executive branch can violate any laws so long as the President says okay.
I imagine you felt very differently about this when Biden was President.
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Re: Re: Re:2
She wants to come with extra legal reasons why Trump can’t do exactly what he was elected to do and has the authority to do under the constitution.
That’s “pretending she didn’t lose the election”
Re: Re: Re:3
You keep acting as thou the President is a king (an argument you wholly disagreed with literally a month ago).
But it’s not true. Laws from Congress restrict the President, including what the President can do in the executive branch.
Hell, the Supreme Court made that clear just months ago with Loper Bright, which the MAGA world celebrated.
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Re: Re: Re:
Well said, Matt. That bitch is crazy with cope. She probably was getting a taste of the USAID $$.
Re: Re: Re:2
“getting a taste of the USAID $$.”
That what you call you getting a facial from your John?
Re: Re: Re: Ah
I see the problem: you think that we elected him king.
Sorry, that wasn’t the case. He was elected President, an office whose powers are circumscribed by Article II and statute.
And they don’t include what he’s done.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Your disloyalty to the regime and the People is noted.
Re: Re: Re:3
Say, how do you feel about Trump saying he wants the U.S. to invade and take over Gaza, force the 1.8 million Palestinians living there to leave (possibly with the help of U.S. troops), and rebuild the area into “the Riviera of the Middle East”?
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Re: Re: Re:4
That’s a funny way to say help Israel with part of their land that they already cleared.
I’m very much AGAINST exposing US troops to terrorists, but the place is rubble and letting gaza exist as it has definitely isn’t working. If Israel finished clearing the area I wouldn’t mind the US helping build hotels there, or something.
The gazans are really displaced Egyptians, problem is Egypt doesn’t want them back.
Re: Re: Re:5
Ladies, gentlemen, and non-binary brethren, let it be known that Matthew M. Bennett endorses an ethnic cleansing of Gaza, which may or may not (but likely does) include the deaths of any Palestinians in Gaza who would resist being moved from their homeland at gunpoint.
Re: Re: Re:3
What are you gonna to about it?
Wank off with handfuls of dry pasta while screaming Leon’s name over and over while sobbing, no doubt.
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Re: Re: Re:2
No, I think we elected him President who has near total control of the Executive branch. That includes things like firing basically anyone and letting anyone he wants access any system. They are, for the next 4 years, HIS systems.
Article II? Yes. Statute? No, for the most part.
I see, we’ve hit upon the problem. YOU DON’T KNOW HOW THE SEPARATION OF POWERS WORKS. In fact, the ability of the Legislative to limit the powers of the Executive is sharply limited. It’s why, when they made the CFPB and tried to write into the law that the president couldn’t fire the director, Trump went ahead and fired the director anyway and the democrats who squaked about it lost in court. Because it didn’t matter that they wrote a law saying he couldn’t, he could, in fact.
The President controls the Executive branch, nearly totally. Get that through your thick head.
Re: Re: Re:3
Y U MAD BRO?
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Re: Re: Re:4
I’m disgusted by ignorance, that’s for sure.
Re: Re: Re:5
Ooh, self-burn! Those are rare.
Re: Re:
Engaging with him is like trying to hold a handful of diarrhea in your fist.
He’s also wildly incompetent at interesting anything, including the law, and regularly makes bizarre claims. His latest being that the constitution describes what a “government official” is.
He’s also stopped providing any evidence to support his claims because he had a bizarre habit of linking to things that directly countered hai argument.
It’s a waste of time engage with him in anyway that expects him to do so in good faith.
At this point I’ve come to the conclusion that his profound processing disability, or is the most insane troll in existence.
This seems like an excellent place for the FBI to do it's usuall thing.
A coordinated, early morning no-knock warrant entrance of Musk and all of the involved underling’s homes, arresting them, and confiscating all of the computer equipment, smartphones, and other digital storage devices, as evidence to be preserved and searched through…
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Re:
First of, no crimes were commited and this is all completely legal. But also, you realize the FBI works for Trump now, right?
You lawfare vengeance fantasies sure are telling, tho. You realize you’re the baddies?
Re: Re:
You say that, then you say…
…as if mentioning “the FBI works for Trump” isn’t a lawfare vengeance fantasy of your own. The FBI shouldn’t be in the business of carrying out political vendettas for the president, my dude.
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Re: Re: Re:
The Executive branch works for the chief executive, which is the president. This is something you people seem to be having trouble getting through your heads. None of it works for congress or anyone else.
The FBI is NOT independent, in fact. That’s neither good nor bad, it just is.
Re: Re: Re:2
Literally the point of the Loper Bright ruling just a few months ago (which the MAGA world cheered on) was that the executive branch cannot do what it wants. Congress must provide the rules, and the judiciary gets to review them. The point of Loper Bright is that the Executive Branch does not have the Constitutional authority to write its own rules.
So do you think SCOTUS got it wrong with Loper Bright?
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You’re assuming the FBI isn’t captured.
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Re: Re:
“Captured”? My brother in christ, they work for the president and are obligated to follow his orders or resign.
You people just don’t get it.
Re: Re: Re:
They pledge an oath to the Constitution, not the President. They do not work for the President at all. They work for the people.
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That’s extremely unlikely to happen for a civil offense, and Trump could pardon everyone for criminal offenses ahead of time. Nevermind that the FBI is part of the executive branch, and thus follows executive orders (such as 9066, even though the FBI director opposed it). Guess who issues those orders.
Don’t worry, I’m sure the next Merrick Garland will be right on this case and deliver the same swift and decisive justice we had before.
Given the public’s reaction to things like Trump v Anderson, the odds don’t look great. It seems pretty clear we’re going to need something besides just a lawsuit to get people to care.
I mean, they do control the one court that matters. I don’t think you can really structure a CFAA civil case in a way that could evade SCOTUS review.
On the other hand, you might as well try. It’s better than sitting around moping. And the act itself has value, in terms of taking up time and bandwidth.
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That’s right!
The voting-public heartily preferred Trump to Harris. Now you left!sts get to enjoy the fruits of DNC corruption and incompetence.
Re: Re:
Not only did Trump not get 50% of the popular vote, he won the popular vote by a little over a single percentage point. That doesn’t sound like a “mandate” or a “hearty preference” to me.
How’s the price of eggs these days?
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Re: Re: Re:
Ask Biden
Re: Re: Re:2
He’s not President.
By the way bout them tariffs are they on again today or off?
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Re: Re: Re:3
But he did let bird flu get out of hand and ordered about 100 million hens to be culled just a few weeks ago.
So seriously, ask Biden. It’s one of those things that you think is a smart point, but you only think that cuz you’re an idiot.
Re: Re: Re:4
And Trump said he would fix the prices of everyday items on his first day in office.
How’s that going so far?
Re: Re: Re:5
Great! He’s cutting all kinds of spending and finding lots of government waste. instead of being happy about it, you people here are writing articles complaining about that and all the fanbois are cheering on the article rather than the savings
Re: SCOTUS
You might as well try. I don’t think it’s a given that SCOTUS would reject it.
(a) As far as the CFAA is concerned, even Thomas thought that it should be broader, apparently (IIRC… need to look at Van Buren again.)
(b) The contentious issue is the appointment of DOGE, and that’s getting litigated, and probably all the way up to SCOTUS anyway.
(c) I’m not sure even the Trumpists on the Court like Elon.
(d) There’s also something to be said for the deterrence factor that the litigation could have, especially for his minions, and especially if it arrives in volume, which it could.
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Re: Re:
The chief executive controls the executive branch.
No, it’s probably not going to get to SCTOUS, it’s well settled law.
The legislative cannot restrict the executives constitutional powers via statute. That’s the part you’re not getting. They literally have written SEVERAL laws along the lines of “You can’t fire this person” Turns out president’s can, anyway.
Re: Re: Re: No
You aren’t correct.
Re: Re: Re:2
Well, it’s Bratty Matty so that’s a given
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It’s pathetic how Democratic partisans like the author are so keen to resume their strategy of lawfare against our noble leader, President Trump.
Re:
What’s more pathetic is you sucking his asshole so hard his combover is now a murkin.
You might well be onto something there. After all, unless I missed it, nobody has come out since the most recent election to assert that Dominion Voting Systems or Smartmatic machines were rigged, hacked, whatever. That was all private prosecution. It seems that even the wackiest conspiracy-theory-prone nut-jobs’ heads can be reached via their wallets.
I hope it succeeds.
Re:
That’s because Trump won. If he had lost, all those claims would once again have been all over right-wing news networks (that hadn’t already caved to the threat of billion-dollar lawsuits they had no chance of winning). Conservatives/right-wingers these days only accept election results if Republicans win because they believe Republicans are God-ordained to govern (read: rule) the United States, so any Democrat victory must be the result of cheating of some kind.
They did kind of tell on themselves with the 2020 election aftermath, though. Sure, they protested Biden’s victory and made up all these different theories about how he cheated (or other people cheated for him) and all that. But few-to-none of them ever said the lower-level elections—which were on the same ballots as the presidential election and sometimes ended with Republicans winning—were equally as rigged by Democrats/liberals/“the left” as was the presidential election.
The DOGErs need to be deported to DOGErland.
CFAA
I was all ready to sign up to be a plaintiff for a civil suit, but the WSJ just reported that the 25-year-old Elon tech bro Marko Elez had his computer access granted to him by A FEDERAL JUDGE! What the hell? Marko just resigned because he had social media accounts that “advocated for racism and eugenics.” (shocking!)
Re: CFAA
Correction: Elez and another DOGE dude were given “ready only” access by a federal judge.
Re:
Links or it didn’t happen. Everyone knows Musk loves bigotry.