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In Internet Speech Cases, SCOTUS Should Stick Up For Reno v. ACLU

from the scotus-should-remember-it-protected-free-speech-online dept

It was by no means certain that the internet would enjoy full First Amendment protection. The radio is not shielded from the government in that way. Nor is broadcast television. Both Congress and the President supported placing online speech under some degree of state control. In Reno v. ACLU (1997), however, the Supreme Court could find “no basis for qualifying the level of First Amendment scrutiny that should be applied to this [new] medium.” Liberty won out.

A quarter-century later, the free internet faces an array of new threats. Sometimes the danger is announced openly and without regret. Discussing his intention to sign a law restricting minors’ access to social media, the governor of Utah recently declared Reno “wrongly decided.” There are “new facts,” he tells us. He earns points for candor. Most opponents of internet freedom attempt to hide what they’re doing. Some of these aspiring regulators even try to snatch the banner of free speech for themselves. But they all want, by hook or by crook, to curtail or evade Reno.

Many states chafe at the restraints Reno places on the government. A few have already arrived at the Supreme Court. These states endorse legal theories that would drastically shrink Reno’s scope. But they do not want Reno narrowed in a neutral, even-handed fashion. For the states in question stand on opposite sides of our nation’s culture war. Each side’s message is this: Limit Reno for thee, but not for me. Each side wants the Justices to revoke Reno’s protection for the other side.

Yet both sides appeal to the same legal principles. Each side makes arguments in its own litigation that, if accepted in the other side’s litigation, would blow up in its face. Each side makes arguments that, if given full play, could lead to Reno’s being destroyed for everyone. The two sides risk pulling the temple down on our heads.

The cases in question are 303 Creative v. Elenis, Moody v. NetChoice, and NetChoice v. Paxton. In 303 Creative, Colorado seeks to compel a Christian website designer to express a message, in the form of a website for a gay wedding, to which she objects. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit ruled for the state. The Supreme Court granted review and heard oral argument last December. In Moody and Paxton, states seek to force large social media platforms to spread messages that those platforms believe are dangerous, harmful, or abhorrent. In Moody, the Eleventh Circuit ruled for the platforms, blocking a Florida law called SB7072. In Paxton, the Fifth Circuit ruled against them, upholding a Texas law, HB20, that requires “viewpoint neutral” content moderation (i.e., if you carry Holocaust documentaries, you must carry Holocaust deniers). Petitions for certiorari have been filed in both cases, and the Court is almost certain to grant at least one of them.

The driving forces here are Colorado (supported by other blue states and the federal government) and Florida and Texas (supported by other red states). Still, each side has found able champions on the bench. Judges figure prominently in these legal debates, as we will see. Yet the Supreme Court now has the full picture. With both 303 Creative and Moody/Paxton before them, a majority of the Justices might take a different view. They might see that the best course is to defend the rule and spirit of Reno against all comers.

How is Reno being challenged? How do the attacks on it match up in 303 Creative, Moody, and Paxton? Let’s dig in.

Common Carrier / Place of Public Accommodation

Two years back, Justice Thomas, writing for himself, suggested that “some digital platforms” are “akin to common carriers or places of public accommodation.” If that’s right, he surmised, then “laws that restrict” those platforms’ “right to exclude” might satisfy the First Amendment. The state might lawfully force such entities to disseminate speech against their will. 

Upholding HB20 in Paxton, Judge Oldham took the next step. Texas claimed that large social media platforms can be treated like common carriers. Oldham agreed. He concluded—in dicta; no other judge joined this part of his opinion—that HB20’s viewpoint neutrality rule “falls comfortably within the historical ambit of permissible common carrier regulation.”

The idea of common carriage has, Oldham wrote, “been part of Anglo-American law for more than half a millennium.” He explored the concept’s history at length, following it on a “long technological march” from “ferries and bakeries,” to “steamboats and stagecoaches,” to “telegraph and telephone lines,” and finally—in his mind—to “social media platforms.” He argued “the centrality of the Platforms to public discourse.” He grappled with “modern precedents.” He engaged with the “counterarguments” of “the Platforms and their amici.” No one can dispute his rigor.

The Eleventh Circuit, speaking through Judge Newsom, ruled in Moody that the platforms are not like common carriers. Newsom, too, was careful and thorough. But in any event, how much of this debate is genuinely relevant? Judge Southwick’s answer, in his dissent in Paxton, was short and to the point. “Few of the cases cited” by Judge Oldham, Southwick wrote, “concern the intersection of common carrier obligations and First Amendment rights,” and the ones that do “reinforce the idea [that] common carriers retain their First Amendment protections of their own speech.” To show that a legal principle can trump a constitutional right, in other words, it does not suffice to show that the principle has an impressive pedigree. One must establish that the principle has in fact been used to trump the constitutional right.

Here is where things get interesting. This is precisely the approach that Lorie Smith, the Christian website designer, urges the Supreme Court to deploy in 303 Creative. Colorado says that Smith must make websites for gay weddings because her business is a place of public accommodation. What must Colorado do to connect its premise and its conclusion? It must prove, Smith contends, that “public-accommodation laws historically compelled speech, not that they merely existed.” At oral argument, Justice Thomas picked up this line of thought. Is there a “long tradition,” he asked (appearing to depart from the stance he teased with two years ago), “of public accommodations laws applying to speech . . . or expressive conduct?”

Where are the cases showing that, by declaring an entity a common carrier, the state can strip that entity of its right to decide what speech it will (or will not) disseminate to the public at large? Judge Oldham cited none. Where are the cases showing that, by declaring an entity a place of public accommodation, the state can force that entity to create expressive products against its will? In response to Justice Thomas’s question, Colorado’s counsel conceded that “the historical record is sparse.”

Would conservatives be glad to see Smith forced to design websites that go against her religious convictions? Would liberals rejoice at seeing social media platforms forced to host and amplify hate speech? If the answer to these questions is no, perhaps neither side should start down this path. Perhaps neither should be trying to use common carrier or public accommodation rules to evade Reno and control the internet.

Market Power

As support for the common carrier argument, Judge Oldham asserted the major social media platforms’ market power. “Each Platform has an effective monopoly,” he insisted, “over its particular niche of online discourse.” In his view, “sports ‘influencers’ need access to Instagram,” “political pundits need access to Twitter,” and so on.

There are a number of problems with this claim. To begin with, an entity that wins itself market power does not lose its right to free speech. In Miami Herald v. Tornillo (1973), it was argued that “debate on public issues” was at that time “open only to a monopoly in control of the press.” The Court did not disagree. Nonetheless, it unanimously struck down a state law requiring newspapers to let political candidates reply to negative coverage. “Press responsibility is not mandated by the Constitution,” the Justices explained, “and like many other virtues it cannot be legislated.”

Even if market power mattered, it is far from obvious that platforms have “effective monopolies,” whether over “niches” or otherwise. A month after the Fifth Circuit issued Paxton, Elon Musk purchased Twitter, causing more than a few commentators to ditch the service for Mastodon. Influencers—and, for that matter, political pundits—can gain a large following on Snapchat, TikTok (for now), YouTube, or Rumble. More broadly, the overlap among social media products is greater than might appear at first blush. Suing to break up Facebook and Instagram, for instance, the Federal Trade Commission has asserted that the products’ common parent, Meta, dominates a market for “personal social networking services.” The only large competitor in this market, the agency alleges, is Snapchat. Yet the agency has struggled to explain what makes this market distinct. These days, in fact, Meta is scrambling to make its products more like TikTok.

So the worst thing about the “effective monopol[ies]” claim is that it bounces off the surface. The typical antitrust case is a complex dispute about costs and outputs, profit margins and elasticities, and much else besides. Judge Oldham offered a bare assertion. A just-so story. A useful belief, if one’s goal is to let states commandeer the biggest social media platforms.

No one would cry for those platforms if the judiciary were to overestimate the size and stability of their market “niches.” Indeed, many will smile at the prospect. But be careful what you wish for.

Recall that the Tenth Circuit ruled against Lorie Smith in 303 Creative. Smith’s “custom and unique services,” the court wrote, “are inherently not fungible.” They are, “by definition, unavailable elsewhere.” Smith is therefore a market of one, the court thought, and that is grounds for forcing her to speak. Outlandish? Probably so. Then again, Colorado warns that if Smith wins, belief-based restrictions on service might proliferate, leading to market foreclosure in the aggregate. And that argument is not ridiculous; it is merely speculative and weak—not unlike the “effective monopol[ies]” argument in Paxton.

Anyone tempted to use loose pronouncements of market power as a weapon of (culture) war should first picture how the tactic might be misused in a variety of other cases. One careless claim of market power begets another.

Speech vs. Conduct

On the way to upholding HB20, the Fifth Circuit relied heavily on Rumsfeld v. FAIR (2006). A federal statute required law schools to host military recruiters on pain of losing government funding. FAIR upheld this mandate. “A law school’s decision to allow recruiters on campus,” the Court reasoned, “is not inherently expressive.” The statute regulated “conduct, not speech.” It affected “what law schools must do—afford equal access to military recruiters—not what they may or may not say.”

The Fifth Circuit used FAIR as a guide. The “targeted denial of access to only military recruiters,” the court said, could not be distinguished from the “viewpoint-based” content moderation “regulated by HB 20.” In both cases, the court concluded, the regulated activity is “conduct” that lacks “inherent expressiveness.” Therefore social media platforms have no First Amendment right to control what speech they host.

This, it turns out, is a popular way to justify letting the state regulate speech. In 303 Creative, the Biden administration filed a brief in support of Colorado. Colorado’s public accommodations law “target[s] conduct,” the brief says, invoking FAIR, and it “impose[s]” only “‘incidental’ burdens on expression.” The brief cites FAIR more than two dozen times. 

FAIR was authored by Chief Justice Roberts. At the oral argument in 303 Creative, he did not seem thrilled about how the decision was thrown back at him. That case involved “providing rooms,” he protested, and the Court held merely that “empty rooms don’t speak.”

The Chief Justice is on to something. Here again, the best move is not to play. Conservatives and liberals can come up with creative ways selectively to apply FAIR to this or that (but no other!) form of online speech. They can try to exploit the decision with callous craft, expecting, for some reason, that the gambit will work always in favor of their interests, and never against them. Or they can put FAIR down and affirm Reno for all.

Editorial Discretion

Which brings us to the most aggressive, and the most dangerous, of the attacks on Reno. Included within the First Amendment is a right to editorial discretion. This is why the government generally cannot tell a newspaper which articles or letters to publish, or a parade which marchers to allow, or a television channel which movies to carry. As the Eleventh Circuit said in Moody, it is why social media services are “constitutionally protected” when “they moderate and curate the content that they disseminate on their platforms.”

In Paxton, the Fifth Circuit swept this right aside. “Editorial discretion,” the court proclaimed, is not “a freestanding category of constitutionally protected speech.”

In their petition for certiorari, the platforms’ representatives cast serious doubt on this claim. They quote the Supreme Court’s discussion, across various decisions, of the “exercise [of] editorial discretion over . . . speech and speakers,” of the “editorial function” as being “itself” an “aspect of ‘speech,’” and of the right of “editorial discretion in the selection and presentation” of content. As they observe, the Fifth Circuit “essentially limited th[e] Court’s editorial discretion cases to their facts.”

That’s true—but hold on. Let us return, one last time, to 303 Creative. At argument, Justice Sotomayor sounded remarkably like Judge Oldham. “Show me where,” on the website, “it’s your message,” she asked Smith’s counsel. “How is this your story? It’s [the couple’s] story.” Counsel responded with—the right to editorial discretion. “Every page” on the website is Smith’s “message,” counsel said, “just as in a newspaper that posts an op-ed written by someone else.” Sotomayor did not seem impressed.

We must again ask whether the states would welcome consistent application of their legal principles. If Colorado successfully compels Smith to speak in 303 Creative, will it accept that it has strengthened Florida’s and Texas’s hand in Moody and Paxton? Would Florida and Texas be willing to remove the platforms’ right to editorial discretion at the price of nixing many Christian artists’ right to such discretion as well? A state could duck the question by dreaming up new and clever ways to distinguish the cases. Yes, of course. Other, very different states could do the same. That is the problem.

The Court has called for the views of the Solicitor General in Moody and Paxton. The Biden administration will be tempted to try to thread the needle. To get cute. To argue that the red-state social media laws before the Court are toxic and scary and unconstitutional, but that the blue-state social media laws in the works are beneficial and enlightened and in perfect harmony with the First Amendment. 

The Solicitor General should resist the urge to make everything come out right (from a liberal perspective). Here is what she should do instead. Agree that review is warranted. Denounce SB7072 and HB20. Celebrate the right to editorial discretion. Heap praise on Reno v. ACLU. Stop.

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Comments on “In Internet Speech Cases, SCOTUS Should Stick Up For Reno v. ACLU”

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Thad (profile) says:

There are “new facts,” he tells us. He earns points for candor.

That’s not candor, it’s the same excuse SCOTUS used for overturning Roe.

“New facts” is a bullshit phrase judges use to justify overturning precedent, in order to maintain the pretense that all judges are unbiased and impartial and therefore any judge disagreeing with any established precedent must be the result of the previous judge not having all the facts, because of course it can’t be because different judges are motivated by different political biases; how dare you suggest judges have political biases?

It’s the farthest thing from candor. It’s about as candid as pro wrestling.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

I will note, again, for the record, that at no point in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case did the government demand that the bakery bake a cake for the couple that sued them, much less decorate that cake with speech the bakery owner wasn’t comfortable with expressing on his store’s products. The case hinged on whether the bakery discriminated by refusing to sell a basic-ass cake in the first place, not on what decorations or messaging would be on the cake. Azucar Bakery and Hands-On Originals both won cases brought against them because they weren’t willing to put speech they found objectionable on their products (Azucar for anti-queer speech, Hands-On for pro-queer speech).

The government can compel businesses to treat the general public equally in many ways. Compelling a business owner to put speech they find objectionable on a product they sell doesn’t tend to be one of them.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

I will note, again, for the record, that at no point in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case did the government demand that the bakery bake a cake for the couple that sued them, much less decorate that cake with speech the bakery owner wasn’t comfortable with expressing on his store’s products.

I will note, again, that that is completely incorrect. The couple that sued them got married while the case played out (obvi, and it’s super weird that you keep on mentioning it as if it mattered), but the state absolutely was trying to compel MPC to sell gay wedding cakes for gay weddings. At no time did MPC refuse to sell a “basic-ass cake” to gay people.

It’s weird cuz I think you actually believe this description, but none of the available documents, including those you yourself have quoted, actually support what you’re saying.

Colorado was absolutely trying to compel presumably delicious gay wedding cakes.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I have! In great detail, actually.

You saying so is not providing citations in great detail.

That’s where you always go wrong, you expect us to take your word for just about everything you say, and when asked to provide citations, you just point back to all the times YOU said something, but never have your provided any citations or proof outside of your own imagination.

Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Re:4

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9791824145027340622&q=sweet+cakes+by+melissa&hl=en&as_sdt=6,38#p1074

Furthermore, Oregon’s interest is in no way related to the suppression of free expression. Rather, Oregon has an interest in preventing the harms that result from invidious discrimination that is “wholly apart from the point of view such conduct may transmit.” Roberts, 468 U.S. at 628, 104 S.Ct. 3244. BOLI’s order reflects a concern with ensuring equal access to products like wedding cakes when a seller chooses to sell them to the general public, not a concern with influencing the expressive choices involved in designing or decorating a cake.

Finally, we conclude that any burden imposed on the Kleins’ expression is no greater than essential to further the state’s interest. Again, it is significant that BOLI’s order does not compel the Kleins to express an articulable message with which they disagree; rather, their objection is to being compelled to engage in any conduct that they regard as expressive. “[A]n incidental burden on speech is no greater than is essential, and therefore is permissible'" if "the neutral regulation promotes a substantial government interest that would be achieved less effectively absent the regulation.'”

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

He’s right…but only in a sense: The courts initially ruled that Masterpiece Cakeshop had discriminated against the gay couple and would need to make wedding cakes for gay couples (decorations and messaging notwithstanding) to stay compliant with Colorado state law. Masterpiece stopped selling wedding cakes to anyone so it wouldn’t have to worry about that.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

the state absolutely was trying to compel MPC to sell gay wedding cakes for gay weddings

How can a wedding cake be gay? 🤣

But seriously…

As I’ve explained to you before (and you’ve refused to understand in good faith), the issue wasn’t the decorations or messaging⁠—it was Masterpiece offering a base product (a wedding cake) to the general public, then refusing to accept that gay people are part of the general public. The state told the bakery that if it wanted to keep selling wedding cakes, it needed to follow the law and let gay customers buy them, too. At no point in this case did the state ever try to compel an expression of pro-gay/“woke” speech from Masterpiece. And rather than risk another discrimination case being brought against it, Masterpiece chose to stop selling wedding cakes altogether⁠—with no punishment from the government, might I add.

At no time did MPC refuse to sell a “basic-ass cake” to gay people.

A cake can be made for a specific event, but without any decorations or messaging, it’s just a regular-ass undecorated cake. And I should note that Azucar Bakery won its case because it offered to sell the customer a cake without their anti-gay messaging (and offered to sell that customer what they needed to put that messaging on themselves). I’ll also note that Hands-On Originals won its case even after it refused to print what was ostensibly pro-gay speech on T-shirts⁠—a case that was decided correctly, might I add.

If you offer a “menu” of basic items to the general public, you have to sell them to the entire general public equally under the law. A wedding cake was a basic item on Masterpiece’s “menu”⁠—and if the bakery had refused to put pro-gay messaging on the cake but sold the basic-ass wedding cake to the gay couple anyway, Masterpiece likely would’ve won its case like Azucar and Hands-On won theirs.

But please, go ahead and show me where the government attempted to compel Masterpiece Cakeshop into expressing any sort of pro-gay speech on its products. I’ll wait.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

As I’ve explained to you before (and you’ve refused to understand in good faith), the issue wasn’t the decorations or messaging⁠—it was Masterpiece offering a base product (a wedding cake) to the general public, then refusing to accept that gay people are part of the general public

Ahaha! So you are misrepresenting the case on purpose. Because that is subtly, but very importantly, different than what you were claiming before.

Because every wedding cake almost everywhere (maybe not the wedding chapels in Vegas) is a custom creation. MPC was being asked to design and make a wedding cake specifically for a gay wedding. Not just some cake off the shelf. Which all the jurisprudence about the case recognizes. There is no “base product” of a wedding cake.

I thought you just misunderstood the facts of the case, but you’re just trying to misrepresent an artifact custom made per event as something “basic-ass”.

Well, for one, shame on you, for two, I rest my case.

And yes, it is pretty directly equivalent to designing a custom site for wedding.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

So you are misrepresenting the case on purpose.

No, I’m not. The facts of the case, as agreed on by both sides of the equation, is that the bakery refused to sell a cake at all. Neither side discussed decorations or messaging because the bakery outright refused to sell the gay couple a cake in the first place.

every wedding cake almost everywhere … is a custom creation

Every wedding cake is like every other cake: It’s made by someone following a recipe. How the cake is decorated after it’s been made is the custom part.

MPC was being asked to design and make a wedding cake specifically for a gay wedding. Not just some cake off the shelf.

Whether it was “off the shelf” is irrelevant. Whether it was a regular offering that was suddenly withdrawn because of who the customer was is relevant.

The whole point of non-discrimination laws is to ensure that marginalized groups are protected by law from being treated like second-class citizens. They are part of the general public that businesses must serve equally. In Colorado, those laws include “gender identity” and “sexual orientation” as protected classes.

That’s why the bakery lost at every level but SCOTUS: The bakery refused selling the same kind of item to a gay couple that it had sold to straight couples for years. The decorations are irrelevant to the fact that selling a wedding cake was an expected action of the bakery’s business. I again bring up Azucar Bakery to contrast this case because it did everything right: It offered to sell a cake (the base product) to the Christian customer without his requested anti-queer hate speech on it but with everything he needed to decorate the cake himself. Azucar Bakery was fine with making the base product for the customer because that act in and of itself wasn’t an endorsement of the speech he wanted on it⁠—that’s why Azucar won and Masterpiece lost.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Yeah, I’m just skimming at this point:

Every wedding cake is like every other cake: It’s made by someone following a recipe. How the cake is decorated after it’s been made is the custom part.

Yes, and? What does that have to do with anything?!?

Whether it was “off the shelf” is irrelevant.

No, it fucking isn’t.

Look, you’re lying about this case, you’re lying badly, and I’m going to point it out every fucking time. The making of a custom cake was ruled an expressive act. Yes, just like the 303 website. Now STFU.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Yes, and? What does that have to do with anything?!?

Following a recipe can hardly be considered a creative act or an expression of speech. If I bake a cake, I can later decorate it any way I want to express a given message⁠—but without those decorations, the cake is just another cake.

Similarly: If I bake a cake for a friend and that friend later decorates the cake with, say, anti-queer messaging, the fact that I made the cake for them doesn’t mean I endorse their messaging.

Baking a wedding cake for a gay couple, decorations and messaging notwithstanding, isn’t an act that equals an endorsement of homosexuality. Azucar Bakery won its case because it offered to make a cake for a Christian customer while choosing not to endorse the speech he wanted on that cake. That’s how public accomodation businesses work⁠—key word: “accomodation”.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Following a recipe can hardly be considered a creative act or an expression of speech. If I bake a cake, I can later decorate it any way I want to express a given message⁠—but without those decorations, the cake is just another cake.

I’ll repeat: Yes, and? What does that have to do with anything?!?

Did you somehow think Masterpiece Bake shop was in the business of selling undecorated cakes? To be decorated by someone else? For a wedding?

Yeah, I’ll grant you baking red velvet is not a creative act but what the fuck does that have to do with this case? You understand that MPC is in the business of making specialist, very fancy cakes for special occasions, right? The decoration is what you’re paying the guy for.

I really can’t tell if you just don’t understand what happened here, at all, or are you trying to just misrepresent the whole thing?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Did you somehow think Masterpiece Bake shop was in the business of selling undecorated cakes? To be decorated by someone else? For a wedding?

It was in the business of selling wedding cakes. I’d bet that the owner of that bakery has personal issues with certain kinds of straight marriages, but that probably didn’t stop him from making wedding cakes for those straight couples. It was only when a gay customer asked for a wedding cake that he decided he wasn’t going to follow the law.

Again: If the situation had gotten to cake decorations, he would’ve had better grounds for objecting to whatever speech the customers wanted on their cake. (And like Azucar Bakery, he could’ve offered to sell them what they needed to decorate the cake.) But it never got that far because the bakery refused to serve a gay customer equally by outright refusing to sell them a wedding cake.

You understand that MPC is in the business of making specialist, very fancy cakes for special occasions, right? The decoration is what you’re paying the guy for.

Let’s take a different tack here.

Masterpiece was in the business of making wedding cakes. Let’s say that, during the time where that was true, a Jewish customer walked in and said they wanted a cake for their Jewish wedding. Yes or no: Would a refusal to sell that customer a cake regardless of any possible decorations be an act of illegal discrimination?

And if “yes”: What makes that refusal any different than the refusal to make a wedding cake for a gay customer?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I’d bet that the owner of that bakery has personal issues with certain kinds of straight marriages

Oh, cool, you called him racist, never seen that before.

Again:

Again fucking nothing. He’s in the business of making custom, very expressive cakes, you are hiring him for his expression, specifically, there’s no need to “get to” a decoration state. He didn’t want to design and decorate a cake for a gay wedding, fini. This is as dumb as talking about the baking, it’s not the point, you hire him for his expression.

Azucar Bakery..

Azucar nothing. The only relevance of that case is it proves the state was hypocritical. It doesn’t make ANY of the points you think it does. It only matters in that the state compelled one set of speech but not another. You keep on saying “Azucar defeated the lawsuit because” and none of it has nothing to do with anything.

MPC stated many times he would be happy to sell an off-the-shelf cake to anyone, and all your points on this are just meaningless. Neither shop was willing to accept compelled speech.

Let’s take a different tack here.

Let’s not, actually. No the Jewish wedding isn’t any different than the gay wedding except that he claimed a religious objection and very few Christian sects have any problems with Jewish weddings. (I think this is a sorta false excuse — you shouldn’t NEED to claim a religious exemption to not be forced to do something you don’t want to do — but it is presumably also his actual reason) You then babble on about “decorations” as if it’s some separate thing, cuz it’s fucken not for the 10th time.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Oh, cool, you called him racist, never seen that before.

No, I didn’t. People have problems with post-divorce remarriages, after all. Preparing cakes for weddings involving non-Christian religions might also rankle some people. Race doesn’t necessarily have to factor into any of that.

This is as dumb as talking about the baking, it’s not the point, you hire him for his expression.

And yet, the Azucar Bakery case kinda proves that baking a cake⁠—the most basic service of a bakery⁠—but refusing to put speech the bakery considers objectionable is a far less objectionable (and far, far, far more legal) form of refusing service than is refusing to bake a cake for a couple of gay people.

The only relevance of that case is it proves the state was hypocritical.

No, it doesn’t prove that. Azucar Bakery did everything possible to accomodate a customer with a request for custom speech that the bakery found objectionable. Masterpiece Cakeshop didn’t even try to accomodate that gay couple at all. If the types of speech in each case were switched, the decisions in both cases would (and should) remain correct.

the Jewish wedding isn’t any different than the gay wedding except that he claimed a religious objection

I hate to break this to you, but if he had claimed a religious objection to making a wedding cake for a Jewish wedding, he would’ve been in the wrong there like he was in the wrong with the gay couple.

you shouldn’t NEED to claim a religious exemption to not be forced to do something you don’t want to do

I’d bet that lots of businesses in the U.S. have owners who would rather not serve certain segments of the population⁠—certain protected classes, if you will. The law tells them to do it anyway because they opened their doors to the general public and they don’t get to decide who makes up the general public even if they claim that their religion says they do.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:10

People have problems with post-divorce remarriages,

Y’know what, fair, tho I sorta doubt it comes up that often and it’s not a protected class. (which I also don’t think should be a thing, but it is, legally, for the moment)

I’m a til death does us part kinda person. You married them you’re stuck with them, no divorce, adultery is a capital offense. Yup, for the gays too. Equal protection under the law and all that.

Azucar Bakery case kinda proves that baking a cake….

Nope. I’ve explained this to you, at length. You’re just wrong. The courts have said you’re wrong.

I hate to break this to you, ..both wrong as blah blah

Not sure what you’re “breaking” to me. “Wrong” is an opinion. I have no problem baking wedding cakes for gay jews. But the courts have made clear not doing so is protected speech and all the same logic applies to both.

Ok, so you’re starting to argue from emotion instead of logic or law, which you were always doing and I just wish you had admitted to it earlier.

they don’t get to decide who makes up the general public even if they claim that their religion says they do.

Except that they do, now, legally. The law, as interpreted by the courts, DOES allow them to do that. You don’t like that? OK, fine, I have no problem with you having a problem with it. I have a problem with LOTS of court rulings. But just say that instead of bringing up a lot of shit like “basic ass cake” and “following a recipe” which have nothing to do with the actual case or how and why it was decided.

Court ruled that making a custom cake was expressive speech and thus protected speech.

That should be enough, but Court ruled that CO was also discriminating between expressive speech, which was OK to compel and which was not.

That’s it. That’s the whole thing. Tired of arguing this with you.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Nope. I’ve explained this to you, at length. You’re just wrong.

You’ve explained exactly nothing.

You love to tell people they are wrong, and then point back to you telling them they are wrong as proof they are wrong.

It doesn’t work like that you fucking shit for brains. You haven’t provided a single shred of a citation or proof of what you are saying.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

No the Jewish wedding isn’t any different than the gay wedding except that he claimed a religious objection and very few Christian sects have any problems with Jewish weddings.

And what about Autumn Scardina? Same shop, refused her a birthday cake. Care to guess why?

Care to speculate what ‘religious belief’ is impacted by the creation of a birthday cake?

I’ll let you in on a secret. It’s because the owner of said bakeshop is a bigoted shitbag, hiding behind religion.

And you being deliberately obtuse about that fact changes nothing, asshole.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Colorado was absolutely trying to compel presumably delicious gay wedding cakes.

Welp, when Autumn Scardina came in asking for a birthday cake she got denied as well. I’m wondering what religious belief that compels the baker to violate…

It’s almost like the baker in this case is just a discriminating asshole hiding behind religion. Pretty much like every other religious asshole who follows Jesus’ teachings to hate those you don’t like.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

tragically he really isn’t.

To everybody else who doesn’t post by the name of “Matthew M Bennett” Stephen is totally destroying your argument with nothing but facts.

All you have are your feelz, which being a Republican, means that in order to survive, your feelz must be constantly hurt.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:3

To everybody else who doesn’t post by the name of “Matthew M Bennett” Stephen is totally destroying your argument with nothing but facts.

Lol, that’s nice. Sad for you, but nice. Go read the SCOTUS ruling if you actually want to be informed.

Also, I’m much more a libertarian, but I really don’t care what you think about it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Go read the SCOTUS ruling if you actually want to be informed.

The SCOTUS ruling didn’t directly address the merits of the case⁠—it largely addressed the perceived bias against the religion of the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop. If SCOTUS had addressed the merits of the case, we’d have a more pertinent and far-reaching ruling about anti-discrimination laws.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh, trust me, all conservatives wish the ruling was a lot more robust and we basically chalk it up to Roberts being a squish when he was still trying to make all sides happy.

it largely addressed the perceived bias against the religion of the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshope

The bias was pretty concrete, not just perceived, but it also made clear that expressive speech, is protected speech, and that included making a unique cake. The basically told the lower court how to rule, and gave them the blueprint for it, instead of just overruling them. Which is super weird, but again, Roberts was a squish.

And all anti-discrimination laws are clearly unconstitutional, they override not just free speech but also right of free association. We’ll probably get that recognized at some point for everything but race.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

expressive speech, is protected speech, and that included making a unique cake

Making a basic-ass wedding cake with the same generic-ass decorations as every other wedding cake isn’t exactly making a “unique” cake. And that’s exactly what Masterpiece could’ve done: It could’ve made the same generic-ass wedding cake, then refused to decorate it with pro-gay messaging. That’s what Azucar Bakery did, and that’s why it won its case on the merits while Masterpiece had to rely on SCOTUS making its ruling on what amounts to procedural grounds.

all anti-discrimination laws are clearly unconstitutional, they override not just free speech but also right of free association. We’ll probably get that recognized at some point for everything but race

Yeah, see, if all anti-discrimination laws are unconstitutional, that means the ones meant to protect people on the basis of race are also unconstitutional. The whole point of those laws is to give everyone a chance to participate in the public sphere in as equitable a manner as possible. Hell, that’s the whole point of laws in the first place: We recognize that, to exist as a civilized society, we have to abridge some of our own freedoms so that people who don’t look, think, and believe like we do can participate in society alongside us. For businesses that serve the general public, that means suffering a partial abridgement of the right of association.

You can’t attack an anti-discrimination law that covers queer people without attacking that law on the basis of every other class it covers. Every time you try, you’re going to look like an even bigger asshole than usual. But if you think you can pull it off, by all means, do your best Goatse impersonation. 🍿

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Making a basic-ass wedding cake with the same generic-ass decorations as every other wedding cake isn’t exactly making a “unique” cake.

Cool. Besides “basic-ass wedding cake with the same generic-ass decorations” NOT being a product that Masterpiece Cakeshop offers, court says you’re wrong. OK? We’re done. Making a custom cake (and I really don’t care what you claim, any wedding cake is custom) is expressive speech and protected speech. This is literally settled law. I don’t care what you think about it, I care that you keep on lying about what the case was about.

if all anti-discrimination laws are unconstitutional, that means the ones meant to protect people on the basis of race are also unconstitutional.

Yes, obviously. I don’t think the principal stops at race, I just think the courts will stop at race.

Every time you try, you’re going to look like an even bigger asshole than usual

You guys literally call everyone who disagrees with you racist at some point You, personally, have done it to me, probably a dozen times, tho less lately.

Here’s the thing: Slippery slopes are real. And Jim crow was a special kind of iron clad unavoidable life ruining discrimination that it was thought something special was required to break it. Freedom of association requires the ability to discriminate. It’s an enumerated right for a reason. And the Civil Rights Act just broke that wide open.

Now boys schools have effectively been outlawed. (by which I mean they were sued until they let in girls) Girls and Women’s schools were allowed to persist for decades longer (I don’t see why, same principal should apply) but now are letting in biological men. Women have literally been forced to box biological men, in at least one case causing a pretty bad skull fracture (volleyball too!), nevermind all the medals lost to people who were only mediocre in the men’s division. And no I don’t think someone should be forced to make a cake they don’t want to (I’m a principled Libertarian, I don’t think anyone should be forced to do something they don’t want to), but it seems downright petty by comparison. You only have every other cake shop to choose from.

All that in the name of fighting discrimination. Well, I want some discrimination back. And no, there’s no core principle separating race from all the other things. Actually race is considerably more a “social construct” than gender is.

Courts do sometimes rule a severe practicality outweighs a governing principle so I suspect we’ll get to somewhere where courts decide it is OK to discriminate based on biological sex but probably not race or religion. (what about satanism? Which is, btw, basically made up, recently. The edge cases get weird.)

Btw, I think the principal effect of something like the CRA being repealed would be mass discrimination against whites and asians, because it seems like there’s an awful lot of people eager to do that already, even when the law specifically says they can’t. SF wants to give out money (a LOT!) based on race. That can’t possibly be legal, gonna try anyway. So no, even were I KKK member I wouldn’t want the CRA invalidated. That’s doesn’t mean there’s a governing principal separating it from the rest of it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You guys literally call everyone who disagrees with you racist at some point

Only if you say something that reveals an underlying racist intent, champ.

You, personally, have done it to me, probably a dozen times

That you’re being this much of a wound collector over comments on the Internet is…well, it’s a little disturbing. You got a textfile with timestamps or some shit, champ?

Here’s the thing:

Look out folks, he’s spread his asshole open!

Freedom of association requires the ability to discriminate. It’s an enumerated right for a reason. And the Civil Rights Act just broke that wide open.

As well it should have. Like I said before, we can’t have a civilization⁠—or a good one, at any rate⁠—if broad swaths of the populace can’t participate in it. Non-discrimination laws abridge the right of association, yes, but they do so for a good reason: Without those laws, broad swaths of people would likely be barred from participating in the public sphere by those who have the power in society. You speak only of race, but you don’t seem to consider religion (especially in a majority-Christian country), biological sex, age, or any other trait (inherent or otherwise) that is generally protected by those laws. If it’s immoral, unethical, and illegal to block Black people out of public life, the same should apply to Jews, women, and old people.

(And before you even consider thinking about maybe saying it: Non-discrimination laws should [and do!] apply to majority groups even if they rarely need those laws. If it’s immoral, unethical, and illegal to block Black people out of public life, the same should apply to white people.)

You only have every other cake shop to choose from.

And what if they don’t? Non-discrimination laws are meant to prevent the kind of “well, just drive 100 miles down the road and get your shit there” outcomes that unlawful discrimination can create.

I want some discrimination back.

Yes, yes, you want to lock queer people out of society, we get it. Go fuck Hyman Rosen already.

And no, there’s no core principle separating race from all the other things.

Except there is: Race is an immutable trait like age, biological sex, and sexual orientation. And like those traits (in addition to mutable traits such as religion and gender identity), race has been used as the basis of defending segregation and discrimination.

You come for a law that protects multiple groups of people, you have to come for the whole law. The same logic behind protecting Black people from discrimination also applies to non-Christians, women, old people, disabled people, and (as of late) queer people. You can’t pick and choose which group you think deserves that protection, then say the logic doesn’t apply to those other groups. Or do you really want to defend discrimination based on, say, age?

Courts do sometimes rule a severe practicality outweighs a governing principle so I suspect we’ll get to somewhere where courts decide it is OK to discriminate based on biological sex but probably not race or religion.

No, we won’t. The courts can’t logically rule that way. If they give the OK to discriminate based on biological sex, they have to strike down all other classes in non-discrimination laws⁠—especially the ones based on immutable traits, given the strike-down on biological sex.

(what about satanism? Which is, btw, basically made up, recently. The edge cases get weird.)

Humanism and atheism are considered religions for purposes of law. You can think Satanists are fucked up, but you can’t stop them from participating in society by telling them to leave your business only because they’re Satanists.

I think the principal effect of something like the CRA being repealed would be mass discrimination against whites and asians, because it seems like there’s an awful lot of people eager to do that already

And that’s why we don’t go around repealing non-discrimination laws. Even if some people would consider it righteous revenge to give white people even a mild taste of what was done to Black people for centuries in this country, it would also be immoral as fuck⁠—just like it was when it was done to Black people.

I wouldn’t want the CRA invalidated. That’s doesn’t mean there’s a governing princip[le] separating it from the rest of it.

The governing principle of non-discrimination laws is simple: People deserve to participate in society regardless of who they are. Whether someone is a straight white Christian cisgender male or an gay Black atheist transgender woman, they deserve the ability to stand in the public sphere regardless of their identity. And you can’t logically pick and choose which groups “deserve” that protection without also destroying the foundation for those protections for everyone you think “deserves” them.

Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Things I am sick of arguing about on this blog:

  • Fucking cake
  • Fucking Twitter profits
  • Fucking Elon’s Fucking Jet
  • Fucking Ashli Babbett
  • Fucking transphobes
  • Fucking homophobes
  • Fucking racists
  • Fucking idiots’ views on truth, science, the American way, and anyone else’s intelligence

Since I installed Thad’s Hide BestNetTech comments script I don’t actually see the comments by transphobes, homophobes, racists, idiots, or anyone arguing with them anonymously anymore, but I see enough of you signed in lot quoting their drivel that it’s still driving me insane.

Stop. Arguing. With. Trolls.

Please.

Aidan says:

The problem with the editorial discretion argument with 303 creative is that they are providing web design services, which aren’t the same as publishing a newspaper. I would argue designing a website, that your name will not go on, using text and pictures provided by the client, is much more akin to printing something at a printing press or print shop you own. If I own a copy shop, can I refuse to print brochures promoting a wedding for an interracial couple? If I own a printing press, or large modern equivalent, can I refuse to print writings by Black people, claiming I believe black people should not speak about politics? What if printing them requires me to align, kern, and lay out the text, and pick a font

The speech argument in 303 creative might be correct if they for example normally allowed paid advertising guest posts on a blog or social media site, as many influencers do. There, that seems like it would affect editorial discret

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Aidan says:

The problem with the editorial discretion argument with 303 creative is that they are providing web design services, which aren’t the same as publishing a newspaper. I would argue designing a website, that your name will not go on, using text and pictures provided by the client, is much more akin to printing something at a printing press or print shop you own. If I own a copy shop, can I refuse to print brochures promoting a wedding for an interracial couple? If I own a printing press, or large modern equivalent, can I refuse to print writings by Black people, claiming I believe black people should not speak about politics? What if printing them requires me to align, kern, and lay out the text, and pick a font

The speech argument in 303 creative might be correct if they for example normally allowed paid advertising guest posts on a blog or social media site, as many influencers do. There, that seems like it would affect editorial discretion. But in the case as stated, it’s just normal discrimination in a business that, while it facilitates speech, does not itself consist entirely of speech.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Saying the web designer is being “compelled” to do anything is a pretty dumb lie. Nobody’s forcing them to make any website, just reminding them that if they want the privilege of serving the public, they don’t get to exclude people for civil-rights-violating fake reasons. They’re free to find a non-abusive method of earning income.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re:

Absolutely is being (or would be) compelled not only to do something, but compelled to certain speech.

just reminding them that if they want the privilege of serving the public,

Holy Jesus fuck. By “serving the public” you mean “engage in commerce” and no that is not a “privilege” you totalitarian asswipe. I knew you were dumb, but damn, that’s impressively dumb. (or evil)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Welcome to public accomodation, Matthew.

That is exactly how that works.

Wanna offer an economically exploitable service/product to everyone? Then yes, you have to offer that service/product, or something similar enough, to everyone.

That case law is very established, though I bet Clarence Thomas wants to overturn that as well after his war on 1A.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:

Welcome to public accomodation, Matthew.

As per the Civil Rights Act, which is clearly unconstitutional

That is exactly how that works.

NO, not at all, actually. No engaging in commerce is not a “privilege”

That case law is very established,

For the short 60 years since the CRA? Sure. So was Roe v Wade.

though I bet Clarence Thomas wants to overturn that

Yes, that notorious White supremacist Clarence Thomas. (also my favorite Justice. My favorite economist is Thomas Sowell, if you’re wondering)

WarioBarker (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

As per the Civil Rights Act, which is clearly unconstitutional

On what grounds? Because as it stands now, you’re telling me you’re a bigoted a-hole without telling me you’re a bigoted a-hole.

Clarence Thomas. (also my favorite Justice[)]

Ah yes, the guy who helped overturn Roe v. Wade and wants to do the same to NYT v. Sullivan, and whose wife was hard at work trying to overturn Trump’s 2020 election loss, is your favorite Justice.

Nope, not surprised in the least.

Anonymous Coward says:

I believe the proper quote is from President Andrew Shepherd:

“America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, ’cause it’s gonna put up a fight. It’s gonna say “You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who’s standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours…Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the ‘land of the free.'”

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Matthew M Bennett says:

If you carry holocaust documentaries, you must allow holocaust deniers.

If you promote the CDC “15 days to stop the spread” you must allow antivaxxers, people pointing out lockdowns had no actual effect, etc.

That’s a good rule, I like it. Cuz Twitter isn’t any better at figuring out what the “Truth” is than I am. FB’s cloud “fact checkers” (essentially journalists armed with an English Major and an opinion) definitely are not.

Of course I don’t have any idea how those companies or about 30% of the population thought policing “misinformation” was a good idea in the first place, but yeah, let’s fucken not.

Would conservatives be glad to see Smith forced to design websites that go against her religious convictions?

Yeah, I don’t see the connection, and I think it’s dumb you’re trying to make one. One case is what Smith allowed or being forced to say, the other case is what an SM platform is allowing others to say (tho yes, on their platform). It’s a pretty sharp conceptual difference.

Included within the First Amendment is a right to editorial discretion. This is why the government generally cannot tell a newspaper which articles or letters to publish

Yeah, I think you’re trying to conflate different things here, again. Yes, a paper can choose what to publish, but they are also inherently responsible for that content, not just the author of the article, precisely because they choose to publish it, and edited it. They can be held for libel on those articles. (Op-eds are usually opinion and thus less of a concern for libel but I believe papers can be held responsible for such, and sometimes reject op-eds that make scuilous claims, they still exert editorial control, etc.)

CDA 230 protects a platform from Libel claims, but only if they are not editing it. It lists a specific exemption to this for removing “obscenity” and the like (which some people insist on misreading as any editing is OK). It’s recognizing that the platform is NOT the publisher. But if they start exerting editorial control (which they clearly have) they become the publisher and those protections should go away.

If Colorado successfully compels Smith to speak in 303 Creative, will it accept that it has strengthened Florida’s and Texas’s hand in Moody and Paxton?

I know you spent many paragraphs arguing these two sets of cases are the same, but they really are not. 303 is dealing with what Smith can be forced to say, herself. FL and TX deal with what SMs can be forced to allow others to say, on their platform.

View-point neutral, no trying to determine “misinformation”, and if you edit beyond just removing “obscenity” you lose 230 protections. That sounds just great, k, thx.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re:

If you carry holocaust documentaries, you must allow holocaust deniers.

“If you carry inclusivity content, you must also carry racist content”.

Yeah, fuck that.

Cuz Twitter isn’t any better at figuring out what the “Truth” is than I am.

Yeah, they are, because your reading and reasoning skills are those of a toddler.

FB’s cloud “fact checkers” (essentially journalists armed with an English Major and an opinion) definitely are not.

Oh look, you’re either wrong or lying again.

Yeah, I don’t see the connection

Your ignorance is proof of nothing.

CDA 230 protects a platform from Libel claims, but only if they are not editing it.

Wrong once again, Matthew. CDA 230 protects a platform from civil liability for speech it hosts. In other words, if someone else posted it, the platform isn’t the one legally responsible for it.

As for editing, depends on how you mean it. If they change content to say something other than what it said originally, that would now be their speech.
But labelling/marking content or outright removing it is fair game.

But if they start exerting editorial control (which they clearly have) they become the publisher and those protections should go away.

No. Moderating content doesn’t magically make them the publisher of what someone else wrote/posted.

View-point neutral, no trying to determine “misinformation”, and if you edit beyond just removing “obscenity” you lose 230 protections. That sounds just great, k, thx.

It only sounds great because you don’t understand any of it.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

“If you carry inclusivity content, you must also carry racist content”.

Racist according to who? Racists running rampant is preferable to being ruled by whatever standard YOUR dumbass thinks is appropriate.

People do actually have the right to say racist things, y’know.

CDA 230 protects a platform from Libel claims, but only if they are not editing it.

Wrong once again, Matthew. CDA 230 protects a platform from civil liability

Fuck, man, how would you fucking know?!? Libel claims ARE a form of civil liability, you just repeated what I said, you walnut brained atavism.

Moderating content doesn’t magically make them the publisher of what someone else wrote/posted.

It does, actually, at least as originally written, with a few fairly specific exemptions. But again, how would you know? Do you know anything?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

It does, actually, at least as originally written

And then Section 230 came along to change that⁠—as it should’ve. Without 230, the incentives for moderating content likely would’ve been less appealing than the incentives for not moderating content. After all, what company would want to risk being held liable for child porn if it shows up on their platform and they delete some, but not all, of that shit?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

And then Section 230 came along to change that⁠

No no, I was referring to 230.

the incentives for moderating content likely would’ve been less appealing than the incentives for not moderating content

Oh, if the law was actually followed as written it is definitely risky to be “moderating” content and it should expose you to a lot of liability.

risk being held liable for child porn

This is actually covered by two specific exemptions in 230 allowing moderation: 1) Obscene 2) illegal.

being held liable for child porn if it shows up on their platform and they delete some, but not all, of that shit?

Oh, that’s actually still a huge issue. CDA 230 does not cover criminal content at all. Not just “liable”, criminally responsible. Twitter has child porn on there, somewhere, any sufficiently large platform does, and the FBI 100% could raid the place and accuse them all of felonies. 230 isn’t even involved. Now as a practical matter courts have decided intent really matters (it’s not listed in the statue tho) and since these big companies are all trying to get rid of the stuff (but never will) intent is not there. But that’s all common law interpretation, precedent, and gentleman’s agreement. Nothing to do with what either 230 or the child porn laws say.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

if the law was actually followed as written it is definitely risky to be “moderating” content and it should expose you to a lot of liability

Except it shouldn’t be risky for you to moderate perfectly legal content. You shouldn’t be held liable for other content you didn’t moderate, legal or otherwise, because of your choice to moderate some content. You shouldn’t have to run every moderation decision by a lawyer (or three) if you want to boot someone who posts racial slurs. That’s the whole point of Section 230: It gives services the legal freedom to moderate by not holding them liable for third-party speech.

That logic extends to the CSAM issue, too. Twitter shouldn’t be held liable for that crap if it gets rid of only a portion of CSAM on the service despite its best efforts.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Except it shouldn’t be risky for you to moderate perfectly legal content.

Of course it should. (mostly obviously, I think you just shouldn’t do that). If you don’t moderate, you have nothing to worry about. The internet really was almost completely unmoderated before twitter (early days of twitter too), do any of your remember that? It was fine.

That’s the whole point of Section 230: It gives services the legal freedom to moderate

Again, for probably the 20th time: that’s completely incorrect. Go read the law yourself. It gives a legal exemption to allow moderation for a very limited set of things.

The Point of 230 is to make clear that you as a host are not responsible for content which is not yours. (which should be obvious but it wasn’t) But if you go editing it you can indeed become the publisher, i.e. it’s yours, or at least partly yours. It then lists those specific things you can moderate for and not become the publisher. Not “moderate whatever you want, you’re still not liable” It’s closer to the opposite of that.

That logic extends to the CSAM issue, too

It very specifically does not, as laid out in 230. You both have carte blanche to moderate anything “obscene” but also 230 in no way protects you from liability for hosting anything “criminal”. (that would have included a great deal of normal porn back when but almost all those laws got struck down). Note that criminal is very different than defamation which is what we’re usually concerned with with 230. You could be found both criminally and civilly liable for child porn that someone else put on your server, because if it’s criminal 230 doesn’t cover it. That’s how they got Backpage, actually. (“human trafficking”, meaning prostitution but they wanted to make a federal case out of it, not child porn that I know of)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I may not have been around for the early Internet, but I have been part of an email list, helped moderate an IRC server and been around the Internet since at least 2003, and I believe I was alive at least when the CDA was proposed.

And yes, moderation did exist before 2005. Ever heard of Usenet, or SomethingAwful and it’s pay to access forums? Or forums and, I dunno, EMAIL LISTS?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

…..and? I’m 45 and was on the net slightly before it was the web. No, they were NOT moderated ANYTHING like Twitter was 6 months ago. They would block swear words. (run your usenet groups how you want, I guess, but I never heard of anyone moderating a fucking email list.)

Don’t fucking quote me the 90’s like I wasn’t there. I wasn’t “alive”, I was in college playing Descent over ethernet.

Stupid fuck.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

…..and? I’m 45

Could’ve fooled me.

was on the net slightly before it was the web. No, they were NOT moderated ANYTHING like Twitter was 6 months ago.

And there you go changing your argument when someone calls your bullshit. You said the internet was “almost completely unmoderated before Twitter”, which is nonsense, and you know it’s nonsense because you’ve now changed it to “they were not moderated anything like Twitter was”.

I never heard of anyone moderating a fucking email list.

Your ignorance is proof of nothing.

Stupid fuck.

Damn, you liberals are hateful.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:10

And there you go changing your argument when someone calls your bullshit. You said the internet was “almost completely unmoderated before Twitter”, which is nonsense, and you know it’s nonsense because you’ve now changed it to “they were not moderated anything like Twitter was”.

Incorrect. Both are relative statements and both are roughly equivalent.

I’m not going to argue semantics with you, you can barely read. But no, I didn’t change shit. AOL wouldn’t let you say “fuck”. No one was trying to mute political opinion on vaccines, tho. It was, indeed, “almost unmoderated” by comparison.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Now there is an idea that need shooting,

Violence coming in from the left.

as the only opinions on vaccines worth having are from the medical profession, a politicians unsupported view on vaccines isn’t wort their morning dump.

See, that’s funny, cuz many “experts”, certainly the official position, has been proven wrong.

Oh, and they censored actual medical experts, too, so there’s that.

But your whole idea of “Only experts get to talk”? Yeah, that’s an idea that needs to get shot.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Violence coming in from the left.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphor

See, that’s funny, cuz many “experts”, certainly the official position, has been proven wrong.

By who? Jenny McCarthy? Someone on Facebook or Twitter?

I never thought I’d live long enough to know that a good portion of the population is perfectly fine with taking their medical advice from absolute strangers on the Internet, and get pissed when they get told it’s not the greatest idea.

But here we are.

Let’s hope Darwin was right.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

If you carry holocaust documentaries, you must allow holocaust deniers.

If the news carries a story about the arrest of a pedophile, they must allow the pedophile to present his/her side of the story.

That’s a good rule, I like it.

That’s because you’re a simpleton who thinks his simple ‘solution’ that doesn’t work, will work.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

You are wrong.

Here is an excerpt from 230:

(2)Civil liability
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—
(A)any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected;

Sites can censor as they wish without liability, since this law allows them to remove any material that they consider objectionable. It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.

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Anonymous Coward says:

The end goal of the 303 Creative case is to undermine public accommodations for LGBTQ+ people. It is not a nobly-intentioned fight against compelled speech.

Colorado seeks to compel a Christian website designer to express a message, in the form of a website for a gay wedding, to which she objects.

It wasn’t put forth because of this reason. It was because the anti-LGBTQ+ organization, Alliance Defending Freedom, created this as a test case and got it picked up by the Supreme Court, which never had to take up or even look at the case if it didn’t want to.

It’s a hypothetical case involving hypothetical, fake damages. But the precedent=based damage to public accommodations law that will come from this if the court decides she can refuse service to gay couples, it will be bad.

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Anonymous Coward says:

… an entity that wins itself market power does not lose its right to free speech. …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama

The state had attempted to analogize the town’s rights to the rights of homeowners to regulate the conduct of guests in their home. The Court rejected that contention by noting that ownership “does not always mean absolute dominion”. The court pointed out that the more an owner opens his property up to the public in general, the more his rights are circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who are invited in.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

From the case commentary:

State action can be imputed to private entities that have taken over traditional state functions, as is the case with a company town. It also can be found when a state has facilitated or validated the conduct, or become so intertwined with the private entity that there is no longer any perceptible separation.

Marsh v. Alabama, 326 U.S. 501 (1946), P.326 U. S. 507.:

Whether a corporation or a municipality owns or possesses the town, the public in either case has an identical interest in the functioning of the community in such manner that the channels of communication remain free.

TL;DR: Marsh v Alabama only pertains to very specific situations, all which have nothing to do with social media at all.

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Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The Supreme Court says you’re full of shit. As Justice Kavanaugh wrote in Manhattan V Halleck:

By contrast, when a private entity provides a forum for speech, the private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment because the private entity is not a state actor. The private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum. This Court so ruled in its 1976 decision in Hudgens v. NLRB. There, the Court held that a shopping center owner is not a state actor subject to First Amendment requirements such as the public forum doctrine….

The Hudgens decision reflects a commonsense principle: Providing some kind of forum for speech is not an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed.** Therefore, a private entity who provides a forum for speech is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor. **After all, private property owners and private lessees often open their property for speech. Grocery stores put up community bulletin boards. Comedy clubs host open mic nights. As Judge Jacobs persuasively explained, it “is not at all a near-exclusive function of the state to provide the forums for public expression, politics, information, or entertainment.”

As the Court said in Hudgens, to hold that private property owners providing a forum for speech are constrained by the First Amendment would be “to create a court-made law wholly disregarding the constitutional basis on which private ownership of property rests in this country.” … The Constitution does not disable private property owners and private lessees from exercising editorial discretion over speech and speakers on their property

It is sometimes said that the bigger the government, the smaller the individual. Consistent with the text of the Constitution, the state-action doctrine enforces a critical boundary between the government and the individual, and thereby protects a robust sphere of individual liberty. Expanding the state-action doctrine beyond its traditional boundaries would expand governmental control while restricting individual liberty and private enterprise. We decline to do so in this case.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Awwww, you can actually make an argument, with quotes, and everything! I’m so proud.

So I think this does directly contradict Marsh v. Alabama, eve more so because the cable operators are essentially given a government mandated monopoly. I think especially the term “has not traditionally and exclusively been performed by government” is very silly because we are talking about functions that have not traditionally been provided by anyone.

In other words, nobody with the slightest understanding of Marsh would ever tell the lie that it applies in any way to private social media platforms.

Awww, he’s gone again.

We could have discussed the finer points but clearly you don’t want to.

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