Getting Kicked Off Social Media For Breaking Its Rules Is Nothing Like Being Sent To A Prison Camp For Retweeting Criticism Of A Dictator
from the push-back,-don't-emulate dept
It’s become frustrating how often people insist that losing this or that social media account is “censorship” and an “attack on free speech.” Not only is it not that, it makes a mockery of those who face real censorship and real attacks on free speech. The Washington Post recently put out an amazing feature about people who have been jailed or sent away to re-education camps for simply reposting something on social media. It’s titled “They clicked once. Then came the dark prisons.“
The authoritarian rulers were not idle. They planned to take back the public square, and now they are doing it. According to Freedom on the Net 2022, published by Freedom House, between June 2021 and May 2022, authorities in 40 countries blocked social, political or religious content online, an all-time high. Social media has made people feel as though they can speak openly, but technological tools also allow autocrats to target individuals. Social media users leave traces: words, locations, contacts, network links. Protesters are betrayed by the phones in their pockets. Regimes criminalized free speech and expression on social media, prohibiting “insulting the president” (Belarus), “picking quarrels and provoking trouble” (China), “discrediting the military” (Russia) or “public disorder” (Cuba).
Ms. Perednya’s case is chilling. She was an honors student at Belarus’s Mogilev State University. Three days after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, she reposted, in a chat on Telegram, another person’s harsh criticism of Mr. Putin and Mr. Lukashenko, calling for street protests and saying Belarus’s army should not enter the conflict.
She was arrested the next day while getting off a bus to attend classes. Judges have twice upheld her 6½-year sentence on charges of “causing damage to the national interests of Belarus” and “insulting the president.”
That is chilling free speech. That is censorship. You losing your account for harassing someone is not.
There are a bunch of stories in the piece, each more harrowing then the next.
After a wave of protest against covid-19 restrictions in late November, Doa, a 28-year-old tech worker in Beijing, told The Post that she and a friend were at a night demonstration briefly, keeping away from police and people filming with their phones. “I worked before in the social media industry. … I know how those things can be used by police,” she said. “They still found me. I’m still wondering how that is possible.” She added: “All I can think of is that they knew my phone’s location.” Two days later, police called her mother, claiming Doa had participated in “illegal riots” and would soon be detained. “I don’t know why they did it that way. I think it creates fear,” Doa said. A few hours later, the police called her directly, and she was summoned to a police station in northern Beijing, where her phone was confiscated and she underwent a series of interrogations over roughly nine hours. The group Chinese Human Rights Defenders estimates that more than 100 people have been detained for the November protests.
The piece calls on democratic nations to do something about all of this.
But as authoritarian regimes evolve and adapt to such measures, protesters will require new methods and tools to help them keep their causes alive — before the prison door clangs shut. It is a job not only for democratic governments, but for citizens, universities, nongovernmental organizations, civic groups and, especially, technology companies to figure out how to help in places such as Belarus and Hong Kong, where a powerful state has thrown hundreds of demonstrators into prison without a second thought, or to find new ways to keep protest alive in surveillance-heavy dystopias such as China.
Free nations should also use whatever diplomatic leverage they have. When the United States and other democracies have contact with these regimes, they should raise political prisoners’ cases, making the autocrats squirm by giving them lists and names — and imposing penalties. The Global Magnitsky Act offers a mechanism for singling out the perpetrators, going beyond broad sanctions on countries and aiming visa bans and asset freezes at individuals who control the systems that seize so many innocent prisoners. The dictators should hear, loud and clear, that brutish behavior will not be excused or ignored.
Except, what the piece leaves out is that, rather than do any of that, it seems that the political class in many of these “free nations” are looking on in envy. We’ve pointed out how various nations, such as the UK with its Online Safety Bill, and the US with a wide variety of bills, are actually taking pages directly from these authoritarian regimes, claiming that there can be new laws that require censorship in the name of “public health” or “to protect the children.” From pretty much all political parties, we’re seeing an embrace of using the power of regulations to make citizens less free to use the internet.
The many, many stories in the WaPo feature are worth thinking about, but the suggestion that the US government or other governments in so-called “free” nations aren’t moving in the same direction is naïve. We keep hearing talk about the need to “verify” everyone online, or to end anonymity. But that’s exactly what these authoritarian countries are doing to track and identify those saying what they don’t like.
And then we see the UK trying to require sites take down “legal, but harmful” content, or US Senators proposing bills that would make social media companies liable for anything the government declares to be “medical misinfo” and you realize how we’re putting in place the identical infrastructure, enabling a future leader to treat the citizens of these supposedly “free” nations identically to what’s happening in the places called out in the WaPo piece.
If anything, reading that piece should make it clear that these supposedly free nations should be pushing back against those types of laws, highlighting how similar laws are being abused to silence dissent. Fight for those locked up in other countries, but don’t hand those dictators and authoritarians the ammunition to point right back at our own laws, allowing them to claim they’re just doing the same things we are.
Filed Under: authoritarian, censorship, dictators, free expression, free speech, internet
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Comments on “Getting Kicked Off Social Media For Breaking Its Rules Is Nothing Like Being Sent To A Prison Camp For Retweeting Criticism Of A Dictator”
A great many of our leaders want all of the power and none of the responsibility. You can see this happening in Florida right now, so long as you’re not one of the rat bastards who actually agrees with DeSantis’s bullshit.
Re:
Hell, just look at the orange turd king and how envious he was of authoritarian leaders and how their citizens fear and were forced to worship them.
With Trump, DeSantis, and Abbott, it’s very telling of what the Republician GQP party sees as its goals here in the US.
“The authoritarian rulers were not idle. They planned to take back the public square, and now they are doing it.”
Social media is not a public square in the US.
In countries other than the US, are social media comment sections considered public squares? idk.
Re:
The internet is a public square, even if not in the sense of a publicly-owned commons, and it certainly isn’t an world-owned commons.
The authoritarians are also reclaiming the meatspace public square, via the internet.
But social media, if one must, is a public square in the sense than many can speak their minds (whether cats or criticism) unless the platform decides to moderate, but again not a legally-prescribed public square in the US sense.
tl;dr: not an important distinction, particularly with respect to places which don’t have First Amendment and public square equivalents anyway.
Re: Re: the internet is new, public squares are not
If the internet is a public square, did public squares not exist before the internet existed? If everyone got off social media tomorrow, free speech would still exist. In fact that would be a good option.
The internet is run by corporations. Social media certainly is. Don’t depend for free speech on corporations.
Re:
No.
They are considered “yet another propaganda spreading area.”
Heh if they passed these laws here the country would stop…
So many members of Congress would be in prison.
But then these are the same people who feel that being forced to wear a mask is way worse than seeing their child murdered by police.
All of these stop the disinformation laws they keep wanting to pass literally would empty the halls of power, they should be careful enough people would enjoy seeing Tucker behind bars and might support it just for that reason.
Re:
My reading of the constitution suggests that you would have to impeach a member of congress before they could face criminal charges.
I’m not a history buff, but I doubt a sitting member of congress has ever faced impeachment and trial.
Re: Re:
Historically speaking, members of Congress have been sent to prison before being impeached.
Re: Re: Re:
I can think of a few off the top of my head: Randy “Duke” Cunningham and William J. Jefferson off the top of my head.
Re:
Ha, like members of Congress go to prison.
Re: Re:
Duke Cunningham would like to speak to you from his jail cell.
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USA doesn't need to censor social media
The USA detains millions of its citizens in concentration camps fenced around with barbed wire just for the “crime” of being “Not-White”.
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i don’t see how those two things are at odds.
Re:
What?
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And those abuses are reported on, unlike the countries in that article.
Would you like more examples from MY COUNTRY, SINGAPORE, shill?
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Re:
No, they really fucking don’t. Jesus fuck.
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I’m all for extensive and exhaustive reforms for both policing and prisons, and even I’m not so far gone as to believe millions of American citizens are in jail only for being people of color.
Re: Re:
Right. They always have at least an excuse for the incarceration that isn’t skin color, however invalid that excuse may be.
Re: Re: Re:
I’m not saying it never happens. I’m saying that there’s no way millions of people of color are in U.S. prisons based only on the color of their skin. Or do you really want to argue that, say, R. Kelly is in jail because he’s Black and not because he’s guilty of the crimes for which he was accused, tried, and convicted?
Re: Re: Re:2
“Millions” is clearly hyperbolic exaggeration, but POC are grossly over-represented in the prison population, and unless you’re* going to claim this is because they are… predisposed to criminality, then there must be other more complicated, deep-rooted, systemic reasons, which tend to eventually boil down to not being white.
*The royal ‘you’, not you personally. 😉
Re: Re: Re:3
I don’t think that’s what Stephen T. Stone was driving at; PoC are definitely overrepresented in the prison population, and race is definitely a factor (especially in the US), but it’s certainly not the only one (money being another one).
Re: Re: Re:4
Of course money is a factor, that’s what I mean by complicated, deep-rooted, systemic reasons. Crime and poverty are inextricably linked.
Re: Re: Re:5
Ah, fair enough. I’m sorry if I misrepresented you.
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Re: Re: Re:3
52 % of US murders are committed by a race that makes up 13% of the US population. That’s a real stat. You can dream up whatever reasons for that you want, but what you can’t say is that proportionately more people of that race are put in jail for murder due to racism.
“Systemic” just means you want to blame it on racism without pointing to a specific, solvable case of racism.
Also not “concentration camps”. So the statement is wrong and ill-informed on all counts.
Re: Re: Re:4
Your fractured mask is slipping, M. Are you sure you don’t want one of your other selves to take credit for your racism? Maybe K could take that role.
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Re: Re: Re:5
Uh huh. Go ahead, try to point out how a fact can be racist.
Re: Re: Re:6
Well then, let’s…
Strip out all the context and underlying factors of why 52% of murders are committed by black people.
Like how economically disadvantaged they are vis-a-vis (when compared to) white people or other white-approved minorites.
I’m sure others can add more, but here’s another fact:
Being white in America renders you safe from a lot of things, like the systemic racism embedded in the laws of the land, for one. Less likely to be beat up by cops too…
Re: Re: Re:7
Do you think he’ll look at underlying causes? Of course not, because that requires honesty and a inquisitive mind. He has already decided that he is right and all his arguments flows from that.
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Re: Re: Re:7
The “context” doesn’t change the fact, dumbass.
Re: Re: Re:8
But the context does explain why the number is there, and presenting it without context suggests that you think there is some other reason, generally an inferiority of some kind. Thus, the posting of the fact sans context is why people accuse you of being racist. Without including the context, it appears you are blaming the victims here, rather than the policies of white supremacy that systemically stripped blacks of their wealth, their health, and their opportunities. That’s why people called presenting the fact without context racist. Because of what you were using it to imply.
If you didn’t mean to imply that, then you’re a piss poor explainer of things. Don’t want to be called racist? Don’t post things in a misleading manner without the necessary and important context.
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Re: Re: Re:9
Presenting the fact presents it as the problem to be solved. Woke ideologues love to chatter about root causes, but when blood is flowing in the streets right now, talking about root causes is useless. Eating too many potato chips might cause heart attacks, but when the guy with the stopped heart is lying on the ground, you need a defibrillator, not a carrot stick.
Speaking of which, bye bye Lori Lightfoot.
Re: Re: Re:10
Also, having dealt with the immediate problem, you move on to long term solutions, which is not happening in the US when it comes to poverty, which is the cause of a lot of crime, including drug use to deal with the despair of poverty.
What long term solutions do you propose?
Re: Re: Re:11
Considering he thinks spammers deserve the death penalty, if you take it from there you have his long term solution.
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Re: Re: Re:12
I don’t disagree with you that I wish for more executions. Instead of three-strikes laws that incarcerate people for life, I would have them be executed (but for real repeated offenses, not things cobbled together by prosecutors trying to make a case). And yes, spammers are first on my list to be executed, being the definitive useless social parasites that exist for nothing more than to prey on normal people.
But that’s not really a long term solution for the root causes that lead to the formation of these criminals. What it does do is let up the pressure in the dysfunctional communities by pulling out the worst elements and putting them elsewhere, whether prison or death, and that leaves more room to try various social programs that might change things for the better.
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Re: Re: Re:11
I wish I knew the answer. My inclination would be to send waves of police and national guard into crime-ridden neighborhoods, concentrate on quality-of-life infractions, arrest the casual looters, shoplifters, and fare beaters. In schools, kick out disruptive students, heavily monitor all parts of schools including hallways, bathrooms, and playgrounds in order to expel bullies and other violent offenders, and in general, separate out the violent and dysfunctional from the rest of the community. Do the same in public housing. In order to have a garden thrive, you have to pull out the weeds, otherwise they choke off the things you want growing there.
Re: Re: Re:12
That you see people only as “weeds” to be “pulled” instead of people who may need help that policing alone can’t (and won’t ever) provide says a lot about you. Not one bit of it is good.
Re: Re: Re:12
What you would therefore do is start a civil war by attacking the people who have nothing to lose in war, and a big upside if they win.
Re: Re: Re:12
Spoken like a typical right-wing fascist, rather than a human being.
Re: Re: Re:12
What some considers to be a weed that needs pulling is entirely subjective. There’s even people who think you are a weed that needs pulling. The problem with your solution is that when those people comes into power your ass is grass. It’s just a variant of the voting for the leopard eating people’s faces party.
As has been mentioned by someone else, if you hade any power we would see cleansings of “undesirables”.
Re: Re: Re:8
It explains WHY it is a fact, terrorist.
Re: Re: Re:4
Why don’t you tell us, really clearly, what you think the reasons are for that statistic.
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Re: Re: Re:5
So you got nothing and just want to call people racist as weapon, got it.
Cry wolf some more, then.
Re: Re: Re:6
I haven’t seen dodging like this since the last Matrix movie.
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Re: Re: Re:7
1) that was awesome.
2) You’re just saying shit, now.
Re: Re: Re:6
I’m pretty sure you have your theories, why won’t you share them with us?
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Re: Re: Re:7
I know you are trying to make me a racist but the fact is the Fact, it exists.
The fact is, given that fact, if (rough math) WAY MORE PER CAPITA [minority] were in jail for murder that would be some pretty direct racism. Like a reverse affirmative action, if you were, for prisons.
Now I’m aware this is about murders just because that’s almost the only well reported national statistics (police departments suck and reporting, arguably on purpose) and most incarcerations are about drugs. Guess what! I think all drugs should be legal! Drug control is racist! (no not really it’s just dumb) Next Question!
Again, state your thesis that says how I’m wrong, not vague accusations of me being racist.
Re: Re: Re:8
I’m not disputing the fact (although a citation would be nice), and I can’t make you a racist. I just want you to explain the statistic that you thought needed to be shared with us. What point were you trying to make?
Re: Re: Re:6
…said nobody not on hallucinogens, ever.
Seriously, did you never develop object permnaence, so uou think you can gaslight about the text on the very page you’re posting as you project nobody else can still see what actually transpired?
Re: Re:
There is always the odd case, sadly.
And even I’m not so pro-Africa (or, more likely, pro-Xi) to run with that insane notion.
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First: No one said it was. Second: Oh, the irony.
No one said losing your account is like being thrown in prison. It IS however, censorship, and it **IS* however, illegal when directed by the government.
And if you don’t understand how government pressure campaigns to ban people and perhaps more worryingly whole ideas and concepts is a prequel to the “say something bad and get jailed” thing, then you’re a fucking idiot. First, you make the speech socially unacceptable, then you start rounding up the “dissidents”.
And if you defend government directed censorship (not just the FBI but the CDC and congressional committees and a whole bunch of other entities, and not just Twitter but FB too and probably others) but then cry a few months later by how not just regressive EU countries but the US federal government might try to control speech (news flash they’re doing that already) — you might be a fucking idiot.
Oh wait, you’re a fucking idiot.
Just remember when it comes that we warned you.
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Re:
He literally agrees with you on everything in the first part of your post. You seem to be losing it, other me.
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Re: Re:
Who ARE you?!?
If by “agrees with me” you mean contradicts his own headline, sure, maybe. It’s still remarkably stupid when you take into account his past posts defending Twitter view-point censorship and defending government influence on same. Without those it would only be half as stupid. 1/4 maybe.
Re: Re: Re:
When things break, things shatter. Welcome to the fracturing of your mind, one letter at a time. Twenty-four pieces left in the puzzle—which one is next, I wonder.
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Re: Re: Re:2
PLEASE make sense next time.
Re: Re: Re:3
A sensible order from a senseless person makes no sense to me. Your reality is not my own; your sense of self is yours to rebuild. N or Y or F or A—which one of your selves will be coming out to play?
Re: Re: Re:
No such thing exists in the real world
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Re: Re: Re:2
So you don’t read BestNetTech, just comment then?
Re: Re: Re:3
I do read BestNetTech. I write much of it.
I have never defended “view-point censorship” nor would I.
I have defended the rights of companies to moderate their own private spaces. I have also, quite regularly, criticized the companies for doing a bad job at that moderation, often by willing to pull down content too quickly. But I have never defended “view-point censorship” by Twitter or anyone else.
Maybe you’re confused?
Oh, wait. You’re definitely confused, and you’ve built up this myth in your mind because you can’t stand to admit that you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
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Re: Re: Re:4
You’re lying, straight up.
Possibly lying. You don’t seem to be aware of what you wrote, in any case. Of course the more likely answer is you’re just lying about that.
No, Masnick, I’m accusing you of lying. More gaslighting is not much of a rebuttal.
Re: Re: Re:5
Neither is saying “you’re lying” over and over again with nothing to back it up.
Re: Re: Re:6
They appear to be using the copyright maximalist(among others) tactic of ‘if you repeat an accusation of guilt enough times that’s the same thing as providing evidence of guilt.’
Sadly for them the people here aren’t the equivalent of judges dealing with copyright cases and therefore unless they want people to understand just how pathetic and baseless their claims are that tactic isn’t working well for them
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Re: Re: Re:7
Ironic, since I believe in doing away with or dramatically reducing most IP protections (part of why I was a fan of BestNetTech at one point) but I’ve laid how and why he’s a liar dozens of times. It’s not my fault you don’t read so good.
Re: Re: Re:8
Why should we believe you if you don’t believe in yourself enough to give us the proof you claim to have for the claims you want to prove? Show us the receipts and maybe we’ll buy what you’re selling, but it’s looking like you’re selling bullshit and we’re not buying, and your ego can’t seem to take the same shots that you’ve let tear down what was once your credibility.
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Re: Re: Re:9
I have? You were there.
All you’re trying to do is waste my time.
Re: Re: Re:10
I can’t waste your time if you willingly give it to me, and you are willing to give me all your time if I give you even the slightest attention in return. That seems like a fair trade from where I sit.
And no, you’ve offered no proof for your claims. You keep yelling “Mike lies” as if repeating a lie long enough will always make it a fact. You can lie to yourself all you like, but lying to me means I’ll call you on it. Wipe the lie off your face and wear the truth for a change. And remember: The little details matter.
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Re: Re: Re:11
Well, you wanted to waste my time and I said “no”. I guess we’re done then.
Re: Re: Re:12
This conversation may be over, but you and I far from done with each other so long as you keep walking through the door and asking me for service. If you want this to end, the door’s to your left. All you have to do is walk back through it.
Re: Re: Re:10
No, you haven’t. The only one wasting time here is you.
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Re: Re: Re:6
I mean, I have, at least dozens of times. The rebuttals to THAT have been a variety of grade school insults, ad hominem that have nothing to do with the argument, and then occasionally Masnick chiming in with a bit of “it depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is”. I.e. when he can’t lie anymore on the plain meaning of a sentence he just tries to change the definitions of the words involved. So, more lying.
Re: Re: Re:7
[Projects facts contrary to evidence]
Re: Re: Re:5
No, you’re lying, straight up.
See how easy that is to do online? Got anything better?
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Re: Re: Re:6
The important thing is that Masnick knows what I’m referring to, and even tho he doesn’t want to admit, he knows I’m right.
You would know too if you read BestNetTech.
Re: Re: Re:7
I have no earthly idea what you think you’re referring to.
Your claims that I have “lied” seem to revolve around your own inability to understand what I have written mixed in with a sprinkle of a weird obsession with Elon Musk, a man who has (according to your own terminology) shadowbanned you on Twitter.
I have yet to see you be correct about almost anything. You have an uncanny ability to be extremely wrong, and often confused. You are quite full of yourself for someone so consistently wrong.
Most of the time when you accuse me of “lying” it’s either because you don’t understand the details and nuances of what’s being addressed, and simply can’t handle the actual truth, or because you feel the need to misrepresent fairly basic concepts that every other person here can grasp.
If you can show that I lied do so.
Re: Re: Re:7
Do you think you can read minds or something?
Re: Re: Re:5
You have copious amounts of past articles to quote from to prove such promotion of viewpoint censorship, you know the whole extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You write about this so much in the comments it would behoove you to actually have some examples of such claims. You can bloviate on and on about this and that but you never provide examples. Apparently we’re supposed to go looking for examples of viewpoint discrimination that don’t exist.
Oh wait, here’s all the quotes proving viewpoint discrimination. I went through ten years of posts reading them all, looking for the slightest signs of viewpoint discrimination. These are all the quotes:
And there you go folks, all the proof you need. I’ve gone through every single article and comment of last ten years and Masnick has never once said anything resembling viewpoint discrimination. You’re welcome to provide some proof that rebuts my point.
Re: Re: Re:6
That’s a concept Matty really struggles with.
Re: Re: Re:7
Matty thinks that he is extraordinary, and that should be all the proof you need.
/s9Just in case).
Re: Re: Re:5
At best, you have presented a case where you two agree on the definition of the term in question, which isn’t the same as lying.
On what do you base this on?
Re: Re: Re:3
Says the man on a one-asshole campaign to harass Mike into not criticizing his preferred side…
You’re just as bad as the pro-government digital brownshirts in Singapore.
Re:
Two of those things are true. Guess which one isn’t and you win a STFU Prize.
Guess what’s happening in conservative-controlled states right now in re: pro-queer speech.
Every accusation, a confession; every insult, a mirror.
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Re: Re:
No, it isn’t.
(Your characterization wouldn’t even be true of public school curricula but public-school curricula is inherently subject to political control as it is in fact part of government. If you don’t like it, get rid of public schools. (which is what I want also for completely different reasons) This has 0 intersection which government control of private speech)
Congrats on saying nothing interesting in all that.
Re: Re: Re:
Oh, yes, it is. In addition to the book bans that are targeting (among other heretical-to-conservative texts) all books that so much as say “queer people exist”, several states are in the process of trying to ban public drag performances of any kind with legislation worded so broadly that those laws could also apply to trans people existing in public. Saying “nuh-uh” doesn’t change those documented facts.
Because of course you do. By the by: Which sect of Christianity will oversee the new privatized school system you’re so eager to install, and would those schools be protected from lawsuits for forcefully converting non-Christian students who would be forced to attend those schools because no public option exists?
Re: Re: Re:2
And let’s not forget the law colloquially known as “Don’t Say Gay”.
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Re: Re: Re:3
Not a thing, never was a thing, despite liberal retard’s attempt to pretend it’s a thing.
Re: Re: Re:4
The law existed. Maybe not officially under the name I wrote, but DeSantis literally signed a law directing teachers on how to talk to their young pupils about sexual orientation and gender identity.
But you don’t give a fuck about that because it doesn’t suit your agenda.
Re: Re: Re:4
Literal government-coerced speech on the subject of queerness and Matthew “clutch my pearls they’re banning accounts” Bennett suddenly doesn’t care about censorship?
What a surprise.
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Re: Re: Re:5
——WUT?!?
Re: Re: Re:3
I’m not too familiar with this, but is this similar to Bill Clinton’s “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell”?
Re: Re: Re:2
Strange how quickly they jump between ‘social media enforcing the rules on their private property is censorship’ to ‘states and political parties banning books and trying to silence controversial opinions like ‘being gay/trans isn’t a sign of mental illness’ is perfectly fine’, it’s almost as though whether something counts as censorship/the acts of ‘woke ideologues’ is entirely contingent upon whether the ‘censorship’ is in their favor.
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Re: Re: Re:3
There’s a lot of irony there, both in you think that’s the comparison being made and that you’re dumb enough to think that makes any sense, receptively.
1) It’s censorship regardless of whether the government does it or not. It’s illegal when government does it. This is often presumed to include Censorship by proxy.
2) Government education IS government speech. There can’t be any “censorship” there, nor really a 1A violation (except for violation of church and state and the like). You’re just whining that your fellow citizens prefer a curriculum that you do not.
Re: Re: Re:4
All people are created equally except some people aren’t people because they make me feel uncomfortable so instead of the minor inconvenience of learning how to live with that I am going to ban these people that make me uncomfortable and who gives a fuck if that makes their lives hellish. I, being favored by God, have the right to not be bothered by the lives of other people. How dare other people exist within my reality, people that don’t act in accordance with my views! Any attempts by such non-people to demand treatment as actual people impinges upon my freedom.
The Illogic of Conservative Snowflakes
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Re: Re: Re:5
You’re saying a buncha words and none of them have anything to do with me.
If you want to argue, make more sense next time, mmm’kay?
Re: Re: Re:4
Bud, if I invite you to my house, then you hit on my wife, and I kick you out, that ain’t censorship of your free speech. That’s a breach of trust. It’s the same when you signed up for an account, promising not to do or say certain things, then doing it anyway and getting banned.
And don’t say that no one said beforehand what, exactly, was banworthy. I shouldn’t have to tell you not to hit on my wife before it happens either.
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Re: Re: Re:5
Bud, twitter ain’t your house, and yes it would be censorship, actually. Censorship is sometimes justifiable. (sounds like your wife is looking for better options tho)
Re: Re: Re:6
Who said Twitter is my house? Twitter is Twitter’s house. It makes the rules for itself and its guests (that would be us).
You must like calling any rights you don’t like censorship. My right to walk away? Censorship. Twitter’s and my property rights? Censorship. Education that recognizes queer existence? Censorship. Education that forbids recognizing queer existence? A-ok. 👌
Re: Re: Re:7
Twitter has zero control over anyone’s speech except their own.
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Re: Re: Re:7
If you’re the same “anon” you did, actually.
Re: Re: Re:8
Where?
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Re: Re: Re:2
No, it isn’t. Nor have any books been banned.
Public school not offering the indoctrination that you prefer is not “censorship” you fucking moron.
I’m not religious, btw, but there are many secular private schools and there’s nothing wrong with religious schools for those who prefer it.
Re: Re: Re:3
Yes, it is.
Schools in Florida have been forced to pull thousands upon thousands of books off classroom and library shelves until they can be vetted by a small handful of “experts” or cleared of any challenges to those books being on those shelves. You can call it a “whitelist method” or some other bullshit euphemism all you want—books are being banned from schools.
A government entity ordering libraries of all kinds pull books from circulation because said books mentioned racism or the existence of queer people is absolutely censorship.
Irrelevant. The people most pushing for school privatization are conservative Christians, and it’s largely because they want to indoctrinate children into conservative Christianity since public schools don’t (and shouldn’t) allow that to happen.
We can argue all the live-long day about the failures of public schooling, even though a lot of those failings come down to a lack of funding, which is largely (though not entirely) the fault of conservative lawmakers who want to tear down public schooling. But if you really think those same lawmakers are eager to see private schools for Muslims or Satanists ask for the state funding that would otherwise be funneled into private Christian schools, you’re further out of your shattered mind than I thought.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Public schools are an arm of the state government. The state government has the right to run its schools as it sees fit, pace Constitutional requirements. The state is not “forcing” its own agencies to do something, because employees of state agencies have no right to do their jobs in ways contrary to the requirements of their employer.
Re: Re: Re:5
What does the fact that said government is making public schools yank books off library and classroom shelves until every book can be deemed “acceptable” or “unacceptable” (based on whether they have any content that acknowledges the existence of queer people and/or racism) say about that government?
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Re: Re: Re:6
1) They’re not. (librarians have pulled books off shelves….because they are being dramatic and trying to pretend the law says other than it does).
2) Even if they were, that’s still not “Banning books”. You can still buy or possesses that book, you’re not going to be prohibited with bringing that book anymore. It’s just a library (a government library) choosing to carry a book, or not. If that decision was due to political decisions that would be OK too, as it is actually a decision within the scope of politics, though it was not actually in this case.
3) It is OK for public libraries not to carry certain content. Should the library have subscriptions to The Daily Stormer alongside the NYT? Of course not, the NYT should be banned. (I kid) It is perfectly acceptable for the library not to carry The Daily Stormer, or hardcore porn (gay, straight or otherwise) and that’s an inherently political decision. It’s not a 1A violation at all, tho. It is not OK to ban The Daily Stormer from the internet. It is OK to not carry it in the public (gov funded) library.
It’s not irrelevant at all. Firstly, my reasons are not invalidated because people you don’t like agree with me, and secondly you obviously think there’s some sort of problem with people you don’t like getting to educate their own kids, and that’s super fucking dumb and undermines your point. The only reason you think that is a problem is because you think you should get to decide how their kids are educated.
Anon is exactly on point, public education is inherently part of government, and you’re just pissed because you lost the fight about the how the indoctrination should go. Get fucked.
Re: Re: Re:7
The vagueness of the law and the need to cover one’s ass means books are being yanked. That they’re being “whitelisted” instead of “blacklisted” doesn’t make the ban any less of one.
When the government decides that a book should be yanked from library shelves because of its content, that’s censorship. Some people may not have a way to access a given book besides a library, and the government telling everyone “nope, sorry, this book is too queer for you to read” is no better than if it said “nope, sorry, this book is too conservative for you to read”. Free access to information is part of the right of free speech and expression; to deny someone that access is censorship.
It isn’t OK for the government to be deciding what content is acceptable for everyone to access. If a library wants to carry a copy of The Daily Stormer, that should be its right—even if it means that library catches all the shit for its decision. (What, did you think I was going to say otherwise?)
Whatever you think is going to happen by privatizing schooling is not going to happen how you think it will precisely because an overwhelming number of the private schools you want won’t be bastions of secular thought. They’ll be little more than religious indoctrination centers—all supported by both taxpayer dollars and wealthy conservative Christians, of course. That’s the future you’ll get regardless of whether it’s the future you want.
I have no problem with a conservative Christian homeschooling their own kids. But I do have a problem with a conservative Christian thinking their ideology should be forced upon all kids, because they’re trying to destroy public schooling so they can have the chance to do exactly that.
I’m not a parent. I might want a say in what public education teaches children, but I don’t deserve one. And regardless of whether I’m a parent, I have no right whatsoever to decide what another parent teaches their children or how they children are taught. But if they want to send their children to a public school, they shouldn’t automatically have the right to decide what every other child in the school gets taught—or what books they can check out from the school library, for that matter.
I don’t want children indoctrinated into any kind of political or religious ideology. Schools should be places where children learn how to think instead of what to think. Don’t blame me because you and your bigoted conservative allies think saying “queer people exist” is indoctrination instead of stating a fact of life. That’s your burden to hold.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Yeah I just skipped to the end cuz I don’t care that much about what you think.
That’s nice, but the answer is “NO”. Nevermind that you want nothing of the kind, you just want all the indoctrination to go your way. Tell the kids gender is just a feeling, etc, cut your junk off it’s good for ya.
For at least the third time, you’re just pissed you lost the battle this time. As you should have. The truth is all education must include some indoctrination which is why it should be private. Then you can raise your kids however you want.
Still going to prosecute it as child abuse if you try to medically transition a kid before 18 tho.
Re: Re: Re:9
And yet, here you are.
No, I don’t want any of those things. Like I said: Indoctrination are not what schools should be for. Teaching children how we should all be at least tolerant, if not accepting, of people who are different from us for any reason is not the same thing as this “they’re transing your children’s genders in school” claptrap you’ve been duped into believing by a bunch of rich assholes who want you to be angry at queer people while they’re robbing your ass blind.
Yes, yes, the way history is taught in the U.S. is flawed, we get it. That doesn’t mean we should make it even more flawed by, say, changing the law to make teaching children why the Civil Rights Movement happened into a legally questionable act.
Surprised you didn’t say 25. A lot of your allies are going that far these days, y’know.
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Re: Re: Re:10
Generally speaking, I’m for ONE age of majority. Period.
Most states (really) it’s 16 to have sex with Leonardo DiCaprio, it’s 18 to sign up and die for your country (sometimes 17) 21 to view porn (except on the internet, cuz good luck with that) but 18 to be IN porn. 18 to vote but some progressives want to make that 16 basically cuz they could get more young dumbasses voting their way.
I just want one age of majority, for everything. Are you a fully functional human, or not? Basically all libertarians think this. 18 seems fine. You’re not fully baked but none of us are, tbh. Every issue specific age restriction is just trying to bias things by slicing the cake.
All I know is if you convince a 12 year old to cut off her tits and take hormone therapy, you almost certainly did her more long term harm than having consensual sex with her, and no, that’s not an endorsement of the latter.
Re: Re: Re:11
…said no fully functional human, ever.
Re: Re: Re:11
And since that’s not the goal or a likely consequence, do you have a point?
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Re: Re: Re:12
We’ll get there, eventually. True love always finds a way.
Re: Re: Re:13
No one’s talking about you.
Also, I don’t think you know what “true love” even is.
Re: Re: Re:9
“All education must include some indoctrination which is why it should be private” Well if you want social media-style echo chambers in basic education that’s a fast track to them. How about—get this—not indoctrinating the kids, hm?
Re: Re: Re:9
Do you enjoy arguing against strawmen instead of things your opponent actually said?
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Re: Re: Re:8
Oh fuck me I couldn’t help myself:
If it were a private library, then sure. But that’s never what we’re talking about. We are always in these cases talking about a library that is actually part of government and in that case it is absolutely 100% OK for the political process to decide what books or other materials they carry.
Re: Re: Re:9
When an age-appropriate book that basically only says “queer people exist” can be yanked from school shelves while the Bible—a book with shitloads of violent and sexual content that would be considered “obscene” were it in literally any other book—can stay put, that should tell you how flawed that process is.
The point isn’t that the government can’t do it. It’s that the process is clearly being gamed by (and for the comfort of) a small group of assholes—and that the government is deciding for all parents what their children can or can’t, should or shouldn’t, must or musn’t be able to check out at a school library. If a parent has a concern about their child reading a given book in a school library, so be it—but their concerns have no business overriding the preferences of every other parent.
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Re: Re: Re:10
All you want is to decide what is taught to kids but not have other people decide too. That’s it, that’s your whole argument.
Well, you and those other people aren’t going to agree, so you can wage civil war over it or privatize it.
Re: Re: Re:11
If that were true, I’d be asking for kids to be taught all about how hateful conservatives can be. But I’m not.
What I would want is for kids to be taught less about what to think and more about how to think. We can and will disagree on what that means or on what subjects should be taught at a given age/grade, but we can always figure out compromises and best practices through a reasoned discussion of such matters. That said: Teaching children that people who are different from them in some way—be it that they’re Black or gay or atheist or differently abled—should be treated like any other person doesn’t seem all that controversial to me. Do you think they should be taught that certain groups of people deserve to be treated as lesser than all others on the basis of those differences?
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Re: Re: Re:12
Yeah, bullshit. You can pretend your side has all the virtue and the other side doesn’t but that’s meaningless. They think the exact same thing about you. They think everyone taking your position is pedophile. You pretend everyone taking the other position is a racist or Hates teh Geighs. You’re both right sometimes, so?
You’re mad the other side got their way. That’s it. I happen to agree with them more in this case but that doesn’t change the fundamentals.
Re: Re: Re:13
It’s not hard to pretend that conservatives have no moral virtues when modern U.S. conservative ideology is, by and large, based around bigoted ideas concerning (among other traits) race, gender/sexual orientation, religious creed, and class. Liberals/progressives have plenty of issues—and that includes, among other things, infighting over identity politics—but at least they’re trying to be something other than unrepentant bigots.
No, I don’t. But I do think that if they’re not speaking out against bigotry, they’re accomodating it—and that’s not much better than being an actual bigot. Silence and neutrality only ever help the oppressor.
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Re: Re: Re:14
“I’m right, they’re wrong”
That’s all you got. Well, there’s nothing underpinning that and they’re outvoting you.
Yeah, you do, including to me, personally.
Here’s a funny bit: I’m worried plenty about your progressive (and silly, nonfunctional) radicalism, but my real worry is that will provoke a kinda crazy conservative (not at all necessarily “religious”) backlash. Cuz your viewpoint is so nuts that logic is not answer. Mao cultural revolution is a real worry but you guys don’t have the guns and I’m gonna have to sign up with the deus vult guys just to not get lined up against the wall for believing in a free market. Good times. You both suck, all collective rule is bullshit. k, thx.
Re: Re: Re:15
Lol, when your professed hatred of censorship has an LGBTQ-sized exception built into it, what are people supposed to think? How much of a snowflake must you be to wither at the sight of people trying to be their best selves, whether that’s a gay teen contemplating suicide because of people like you whose words and actions make them think they’re unwelcome, or the people on this site and elsewhere taking the high road and trying to be understanding of radically different lived experiences? Amazing those are the people who drive you to fear government coercion (except, again, when they’re censoring queerness).
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Re: Re: Re:13
Your boys are going to learn to take a big black schlong and they’re going to like it.
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Re: Re: Re:14
NO?
I have one, but I’m a top, k, thx.
Re: Re: Re:15
Nobody believes you’re black, Matthew, or that you’ve got a big piece of equipment. You’re far too chickenshit for that.
Re: Re: Re:10
I’m not sure which I find more entertaining, you batting around the bigot or how the same person who regularly screeches about how terrible ‘viewpoint discrimination’ is when it comes to individual social media platforms is bending over backwards to defend that practice on steroids when the government does it.
Thanks for the continued entertainment either way and I hope you find rubbing their face in their blatant hypocrisy as entertaining to do as it is to watch.
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Re: Re: Re:11
The same woke ideologues who cheer on Amazon for not selling When Harry Became Sally screech in outrage when Florida sets its public school curriculum. People who support censoring viewpoints they hate and support free speech only for themselves don’t get any sympathy when the leopards bite their faces.
Florida should not be removing books, even books filled with the lies of woke gender ideology and critical race theory, from its school libraries, as long as those libraries also have books that explain the truth. Libraries, like other generic speech platforms, should not be censoring opinions based on viewpoint. This is different from the public school curriculum, which should never teach lies as truth, but should explain that people have different points of view. There’s a reason I don’t vote for Republicans – they are, and always have been, greater enemies of freedom than all but the most woke Democrats.
Re: Re: Re:12
It’s almost as if Amazon deciding not to carry a given book is an entirely different situation compared to a government official deciding that a school library choosing to stock a book saying “gay people exist” has committed a crime. Imagine that~.
…says the dude who is okay with Florida Republicans doing that because they’re attacking “wokeness” instead of “conservative viewpoints” like “Black people are basically born criminals”.
You sound like that Texas school administrator who told teachers, “Make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust, that you have one that has an opposing—that has other perspectives.” Then again, you are a eugenics-supporting Nazi bitch, so…
Re: Re: Re:8 not a parent
I am not a parent, either, but I certainly deserve a say in what public education teaches children.
So, yeah, as a childless person I fully expect to have a say. It is true that our school board is not the most responsible and responsive of groups in the county, but in theory I can replace them.
Re: Re: Re:9
And perhaps more important than any of your points: I don’t want a stupid electorate making the decisions for the society that I live in.
Re: Re: Re:10
We’ve already seen it in 2016, and again in 2020.
Both were for the insurrectionist Trump.
Democracy can ill afford another Trump, or “Republican” camndidate.
Re: Re: Re:11 To be fair…
In 2016 and 2020, Trump lost the popular vote. In 2016 he won on a technicality and in 2020 he lost but flat-out lied and falsely claimed that he won to soothe the razor-thin skin of his base, to heinous consequences.
Re: Re: Re:12
To add extra context for 2016, Trump won with the lowest turnout of any election in the US and only because of how American elections work, ie, the electoral college and FPTP bullshit.
So yes, Trump and the Repubilcunts pulled out all the dirty tricks on only won due to how America counts its votes.
And I don’t even like Hilary or her damn policies.
Which, hilariously enough, means that Trump is less liked than fucking Hilary.
Re: Re: Re:7
By this logic, if a state government mandated that all newspapers to the right of Mother Jones, all books written and other media produced by conservatives, all Rand and Friedman, and every book relating to the theory of capitalism had to go through a “whitelisting” process to be shelved, it’s just a government library choosing what books to carry. An arm of the government administering itself. All fair in the scope of politics. Your words, not mine.
Your head is so far up your ass it’s coming out of your head. How did you manage that??
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Re: Re: Re:8
Are you fucking dumb? Of course you are.
Are these public libraries?
Re: Re: Re:9
Like I said, your words, not mine. Why can a government restrict books on queerness in public libraries but not books on conservatism?
Re: Re: Re:3
https://pen.org/banned-books-florida/
https://www.pnj.com/story/news/education/2023/02/21/escambia-county-florida-school-board-bans-3-books-with-lgbt-references/69925496007/
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/02/07/heres-a-list-of-books-banned-under-review-in-central-florida-schools/
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-south/why-some-florida-schools-are-removing-books-from-their-libraries
https://docs.house.gov/meetings/GO/GO02/20220407/114616/HHRG-117-GO02-20220407-SD018.pdf
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Re: Re: Re:4
None of those are an instance of a book being banned.
Just cuz you got a journalist to call a tail a “leg” does not mean a dog has 5 legs.
(Also, all those cases are of librarians purposefully misinterpreting a law to make a political point, but it wouldn’t be “banning” even if they were correct)
Re: Re: Re:5
Gee, it’s almost as if the point they’re making is that the law is intentionally worded so vaguely that schools feel the need to legally cover their asses by yanking books off shelves in case the government decides to punish those schools for not following the law. Imagine that~.
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Re: Re: Re:6
Gee, almost as if their “point” was bullshit.
STILL not “banning”.
Re: Re: Re:7
How so?
Yes, it is.
Re:
So much text.
So little of worth.
Re:
Are you one of those free speech extremists that think being thrown out of a forum for not allowing the chosen speaker to speak is also censorship? If so the only speech you support is speech that you agree with.
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Re: Re:
I am. (though I prefer “absolutist”)
That’s just the definition of censorship.
Non sequitur
Re: Re: Re:
You have just confirmed that you consider your right to speak overrides other people right to speak when you disagree with what they are saying. That is not free speech that is an authoritarian mindset, that leads to only allowing people who agree with you to exist.
Re: Re: Re:
The only people I’ve ever seen claiming to be free speech absolutists are those who’ve never really suffered due to the speech of others. In that respect you are obviously an extremely lucky and privileged person, as am I. But you’re clearly also someone with absolutely zero empathy for those whose lived experiences are not as easy as yours, people who’ve had to suffer the speech of others because they are a different color, gender, culture, religion, whatever. In simpler terms, you’re a selfish asshole.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Cool, cool, liking free speech is…..**checks notes*……a sign of institutionalized racism. Maybe a dog whistle?
Get a new line, I don’t fucking care. Keep in mind that doesn’t mean I don’t care about the disadvantaged, it means I don’t care about your dumbshit line about it.
I am still going to be a free speech absolutist (hate speech included!) no matter how many times you call me racist. Partly because it’s made up bullshit but mostly cuz you don’t get to invalidate other’s opinions by calling them racist.
Re: Re: Re:3
Liking free speech is very different to being an absolutist. There is nobody here who doesn’t like free speech a lot, we’re literally doing it! But you claim you want absolutely no limits on speech, no matter how harmful, hurtful, damaging or dangerous. That’s what absolutism means. That’s psychopathy. I don’t think you’re an actual absolutist, I think you just like to talk a big game online because you have probably never experienced the harm that others’ free speech can cause.
To be clear, I don’t think you’re an “I hate them blacks!” kind of racist, I just think you have no fucking clue what’s it’s like to live in a world where you’re not at the top go the socio-economic pecking order and have little understanding of other people’s lived experiences.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Whatever you want to tell yourself.
Founding fathers were pretty absolutist.
Only exceptions in court have been found to be real, credible threats (essentially a subset of violence).
Again, really doesn’t matter how much you call me racist. Still a free speech absolutist.
Whatever you think is “Hate speech”…yeah, that’s covered people.
Hey, not real fond of the “N-word”…but whether it’s OK to say should have nothing to do with the color of your particular skin, yeah? Yes, it IS ok to use it in quotes, actually. (not gonna to, cuz liberals are rabid, and you might track me down…weak of me, actually).
“Ellen Paige!” Yeah no I don’t hate trans people but Juno was pretty good.
JK Rowling is a very liberal woman (not “Progressive”) who disagrees with me on many things but does not think biologically (perhaps more to the point Physically) male people in female safe places is a good idea.
You can call all that “hate speech” and I just don’t care.
Re: Re: Re:5
I make no claims to expertise on the founding fathers but one thing I have frequently noticed is that many people who trot them out as a way to back up their claims tend to have a very ahistorical view of what they said and didn’t say. It’s really easy to make broad claims like yours without ever having to prove yourself.
Also, old dead dudes shouldn’t necessarily get a say.
Re: Re: Re:
Free Speech Absolutist: Noun, Someone who neither supports, nor even comprehends, the concept of free speech.
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Re: Re: Re:2
I like that you pretended to be serious when you wrote that.
Next you gonna tell me all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others?
Re: Re: Re:3
Empirically observing free speech absolutists in the wild, I daresay Toom has hit it out of the park here. Absolutists are the last ones to say they’re more equal than others but the first to act like they’re more equal than everyone else.
Re:
And I still see no evidence of it happening…
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Re: Re:
so the problem is you don’t read so good. OK
Re: Re: Re:
Need a match for your gaslight there?
Re: Re: Re:
No. The problem is that you failed to present evidence that backs up your claims.
Re: Re: Re:
I can’t read what you didn’t provide, ie, evidence that the American Government actually directed censorship on Twitter.
What I did read, though, is that most soc8al media places bent over backwards to cater to politicians of all stripes.
Oh, and Facebook being given a generous “bribe” to promote “conservative” bullshit.
And no, you can’t say your irrational fear of the FBI is enough evidence, insurrectionist.
Re:
…hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
Re:
Get back to me when liberals pass a Don’t Say Straight bill. A bill that makes even representation of heterosexual people illegal, which is what is happening Florida. They banned a book about two male penguins raising a baby they adopted because it supposedly promoted sexuality even though it’s a kid’s book about two penguins raising a baby penguin with zero sexual elements whatsoever.
And you don’t need to warn us, we already know your side resorts to violence when democracy gets in the way.
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Re: Re:
I promise you, we’re working on that. Straight freaks are indefensible anyway, literally nobody will defend them over someone LGBT. And good fucking riddance, the sooner we’re free of the constraints placed on us by the breeders, the better.
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Re: Re: Re:
Ah, a good “Hate has no home here” kinda liberal right here.
Y’all are hateful fucks.
Re: Re: Re:2
Point to where the obvious sarcasm hurt you.
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Re: Re: Re:3
See, the funny bit is it isn’t sarcasm at all.
You can’t just say super hateful shit and then pretend you’re kidding. (and no, I don’t think you were)
Re: Re: Re:4
Why not? You voted a guy into a position where he did that for four years, and now he’s coming back for a bite at the apple again.
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Re: Re:
The New York State sex education guidelines instruct teachers not to refer to a “boy’s penis”, just a “penis”, because not all people with a penis are boys. So, yes, there most certainly is a “don’t say straight” law where woke ideologues have colonized government.
Re: Re: Re:
You appear to be obsessed with children’s penises.
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Re: Re: Re:2
“boys have a penis and girls have a vagina”. Adorably awkward in 1990, now supposedly hate speech.
He’s got a point, and he’s got a point even when you try to call him a pedophile for no reason.
Re: Re: Re:3
Are we banning books where a boy and girl hold hands or kiss? No? Then fuck off.
We’re not saying you’re pedophiles, just…why should all this keep revolving around knowing what genitalia this or that kid has? It clearly doesn’t bother you guys anyways, there are state laws now that mandate feeling up girls parts to verify they’re not secretly trans before they can compete in school sports. That was your doing.
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Re: Re: Re:4
We’re working on that. Boys need to be aware of the possibility of giving each other blowjobs before they can entertain the audacity of kissing a girl, to which they have no right.
Re: Re: Re:3
No, just an oversimplification of the reality. It’s only even arguably hate speech when specifically used to deny trans rights.
Re: Re: Re:
What, so hyenas now magically don’t have a penis that splits apart at childbirth because LO AND BEHOLD, WHITE SUPREMACISTS MAGICALLY DISAPPEARED THE HYENA PENIS?
Or that rodents have finally lost their penis bone? DUE TO WHITE SUPREMACIST MAGIC?
Fuck me, it’s like nature is predisposed AGAINST white people!
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Re: Re: Re:2
It is. We will purge the straight white filth. The dawn of the non-binary futanari femboy is coming and no praying to their imaginary sky friend will save the anal virginity of the soy boys.
Re: Re: Re:
Again, even ignoring trans, genderfluid, and non-binary people, it is a scientific fact that not all people with a penis are boys. This isn’t even about not offending people; it’s about teaching things as they are without introducing needless confusion.
Note that it never tells teachers to teach that not all people with a penis are boys.
That’s not what this is. “Don’t say straight” means avoiding discussion of a topic entirely, including both not disclosing facts about yourself and not asking someone for those facts, or else you’ll be fired. This is just “don’t teach kids false facts or make things more confusing than they already are in the classroom”.
Again, regardless of your position on transgender, genderfluid, or non-binary people, the fact is that there exist people with penises who aren’t boys.
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Re: Re: Re:2
A basic sex-education class isn’t a place for discussing genetic and developmental abnormalities instead of the ordinary anatomy that everyone in the class will have. Maybe abnormal development can be mentioned in passing, but humans have two sexes, and only boys are the ones with penises. Pretending that this is anything but the indoctrination of children in woke gender ideology is the usual disingenuousness of woke ideologues when their propaganda is exposed.
Re: Re: Re:3
True. However, again, nowhere in the curriculum you cited does it mention discussing that. It says to leave out one word that, at best, is unnecessary and, at worst, is misleading, and it does mention that the reason for leaving it out is because of those complexities, but nowhere does it say to even mention them.
Uh, no. There are two primary sexes, which the vast majority of humans fall under, and, of those two sexes, males are the ones with penises (absent surgery or something). Yes, you wouldn’t mention all of that in basic, or at least early, sex-ed, but the fact remains that your statement is inaccurate.
And, again, simply replacing all mentions of “boy’s penis” with “penis” in no way introduces any complexity beyond what you said. It is an incredibly minor change that isn’t a big deal. I don’t know why you think it’s a major change when it simply isn’t.
How? How is it indoctrination of any kind?
Again, by your own account, the only change in what the students would hear is that any mention of “boy’s penis” would be replaced with “penis”. Nowhere does it say to teach that not all people with penises are boys (even though that would be true); it only says that’s the reason for this particular guideline. The students would likely not hear that not all people with penises are boys in the class. All that would change is the omission of a single word before instances of a different singular word. This means that no additional information is being introduced.
Also, in what universe is teaching something that is true “indoctrination”? Your argument here is that noting the exceptions to the two sexes would be needlessly complicated for a basic sex-ed class, which would be fair enough, but that wouldn’t make teaching that exceptions exist indoctrination of any kind. That would require, at the very least, a claim that the truth of this statement is not settled, and the fact is that it is settled among human biologists (as much as any scientific matter can be settled) that sex among humans is bimodal, not binary, and that not all people with penises are male. Adding unnecessary-but-accurate details to what is being taught is not indoctrination. (Though, again, no details are being added by these guidelines.)
So, seriously, please explain how this is indoctrination at all. It’s certainly not so obviously indoctrination that denying that it is would be disingenuous, and simply stating that it’s obviously indoctrination is not a convincing argument. The fact is that it’s not obvious to me, at the very least, nor does it appear to be obvious to anyone except you as far as I can tell.
Re: Re: Re:3
Why? Education is education, leaving out information that helps students understand all facets of sex and gender seems almost like some kind of…censorship.
Ie, teach something that ignores factual reality – got it.
Are you afraid that young people will learn that there’s more to genders than the traditional but faulty concept of man/woman. Seems so, because you sure are arguing for censoring the curriculum from things you don’t like.
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Re: Re:
I mean, they did, to the exact same extent they passed a “don’t say gay” bill. I stopped reading then.
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You adored the viewpoint-based censorship that the large generic speech platforms used to provide for you, and you are so willfully blind in your hatred of contrary opinions that you pretend such censorship enhances free speech rather than destroying it.
The blacklists during the McCarthy era didn’t throw screenwriters in prison either. That did not make them any less censorship, and any less wrong, despite the fact that they were in support of stopping the evil of Communism from spreading, just like the censorship of school libraries in Florida is wrong despite the fact that it is in support of stopping the evils of woke gender ideology and critical race theory.
Re:
Go away, you Nazi bitch.
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Re: Re:
1) What, exactly, did he say that was wrong? I would say the comparisons to the McCarthy era Red Scares and black balling people are EAXCTLY on point. (If even understated, communism is legitimately evil)
2) How the FUCK does any of that justify you calling him a “nazi”?!?
Seriously, you cannot just randomly call anyone you disagree with a “nazi”. I don’t think very much of you but I weirdly thought you were above that, at least.
Re: Re: Re:
You’re right, and Stephen isn’t doing that. He’s calling a person who thinks that certain people shouldn’t have the right to exist based on immutable characteristics a nazi.
Re: Re: Re:2
Seriously, the dude legit endorsed eugenics as a means of weeding “undesirables” out of the population. That’s basically a core tenet of Nazism.
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Re: Re: Re:3
He did? Where? He’s anon, I have no idea what else he wrote.
Did you….did you think he was agreeing with McCarthy? Is this just due to you not being able to read? (And McCarthy was awful…still not a nazi)
Re: Re: Re:4
This is Hyman, who has expounded on his favoring a form of eugenics in this same comments section.
Re: Re: Re:5
And the murder of spammers.
And hates the concept of data privacy, despite being explained about Identity theft.
And, for some reason, defends the Nazis despite having parents who taught him how genocidal Hitler and the Nazis were.
Re: Re: Re:3 not so unpopular as you might think
Even prior to that, it was an accepted part of American practice and approved by American jurisprudence. See Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S 200 (1927).
Undesirable can mean simply inconvenient. Carrie Buck’s incapacity appears to have been a manufactured post-hoc justification for institutionalization.
Re: Re: Re:4
It was also a time were is was respectable to be a Klan-member which colored both politics and how the law was dispensed if you weren’t white, that was, until infighting and criminal behavior came to light. Much of the thinking around racial purity that the Klan espoused had the same roots the Nazi’s used in their thinking.
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Re: Re: Re:2
He did tho, and it’s not the first time, I’ve seen him do it multiple times. Though hillariously in this case it may be a case of him just misreading the OP.
Re: Re: Re:3
The old hands recognize that particular “anon,” not that you care.
Re: Re: Re:
No actually, we can. Because we’re fabulous, and you ain’t.
Re:
Hyman.
How many times do we have to tell you that you keep supporting people who espouse the same ideology as Hitler, ie, the man whose ideology tried to kill your parents?
You have been told, time and again, to stop being a Nazi asshole and at least pretend to be a human being. And all these times, you keep screaming about “how you are being silenced” when Mike has yet to sue you for harassing us.
Take your Nazi bullshit to someplace on the Internet where YOU get to control. Mike isn’t gonna SLAPP you into being a decent human being.
Re:
As I just wrote about, this is flat out false, and is clear to anyone who can actually read what I’ve written over the years. I have never supported “viewpoint-based censorship” nor would I.
I have supported the right of companies to moderate how they want on their own private property, even as I frequently criticized their choices, and focus, in doing so.
How one gets from supporting the right of a private property owner to exclude, to assuming that I support “viewpoint based censorship” (something, again, that has yet to be shown to be a driving factor in moderation decisions) is really just shining a spotlight on your own confusion and ignorance.
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Re: Re:
As I just wrote about, you’re lying.
Oh sure, but then you went and supported a bunch of view-point discrimination as the Right and Proper thing to do, legal rights aside.
Oh, additionally, you ignored, lied about, and downplayed the proof of government involvement in said censorship, which is NOT a “right” nor legal.
Yes, it has, explicitly so. You just insist on downplaying, gaslighting over, and just generally lying about. Which is why your “opinions” are trash. (honestly it reads more like a paid propaganda agent, not that I think that’s what’s happening, I think you’re just a liberal who loves the jackboot when it agrees with you)
Re: Re: Re:
No. You just asserted that it’s a lie. You have to demonstrate it to be false before anyone should take it seriously.
Then prove it.
Given that the alleged instances of such involvement have been discussed—even by your own admissions—the claim that Mike ignored them is simply false.
As for lying about them, it’s on you to demonstrate the lies. Again, prove it.
As for downplaying them, pointing out that the evidence presented is insufficient to demonstrate the asserted claim is not downplaying them unless you can demonstrate that this is false. So, again, prove it.
Finally, even if it’s true, it doesn’t refute what Mike was saying anyways.
[citation needed]
Again, prove it.
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Re: Re: Re:2
I have no need to prove anything to YOU, ever again.
Re: Re: Re:3
And yet, here you are…
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Re: Re: Re:4
Oh no I always have time for you, sweetie, you’re my siren. Not Bhu-(that’s just not a good handle, honestly)…he’s too dumb and too young to take seriously.
Re: Re: Re:5
Too young? Then what is my age? You’ve gotten it wrong so many times already, so I wonder what you think my age is this time.
Re: Re: Re:3
fixed
Re: Re: Re:4
capacity*
Re: Re: Re:3
If you want anyone to take your claims seriously, yes you do.
Also, that implies you ever proved anything to me. You did not.
Re: Re: Re:
Prove it.
Most people would be on the side of discriminating against viewpoints such as “Jews cause all the world’s problems” and “slavery wasn’t that bad, guys”. You seem to oppose discrminating against bigotry and hatred. Curious. 🤨
What proof do you have, other than the “Twitter Files”, that shows the U.S. government specifically directing social media companies to censor American users under threat of legal penalty?
Every accusation, a confession. Is “paid propaganda agent” the calling for Matthew I Bennett?
Re: Re: Re:2
One would hope, given how much time he bloviates on this site, that he’s receiving some shillings for his shilling. Otherwise we’d have little choice but to believe he’s serious about the racism and bigotry he seems to defend and espouse as a libertarian.
Re:
[citation needed]
Note: Defending the right of private platforms to engage in viewpoint-based censorship without government interference or pointing out why something isn’t viewpoint-based censorship (or censorship at all) or didn’t even happen doesn’t demonstrate support for a specific private platform’s exercise of viewpoint-based censorship. Heck, if you’re who I think you are, you yourself agree that private platforms have the legal right to engage in viewpoint-based censorship, but you don’t believe they should exercise that right if they are large and generic.
You have yet to demonstrate that woke gender ideology and critical race theory are evils that actually exist. You have demonstrated that they exist in some sense, and you have given some reasons why some forms of each are “evils”, but you have not demonstrated that the forms that actually exist are also ones that are evil.
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Re: Re:
Masnick has not just defended the right of companies to engage in viewpoint-based censorship (which I also support, being who you think I am). He has stated that such censorship is beneficial and supports free speech, because he believes that silencing opinions he hates will lead to more people whose opinions he supports feeling comfortable to speak, and that such “more speech” is more free speech. It is a viewpoint that is beyond absurd. As usual, woke ideologues treat 1984 as a manual rather than a warning; “war is peace”.
Re: Re: Re:
Do you deny that companies have that right? I have defended the right, but not the practice. And I have yet to see any evidence that the companies engage in “viewpoint-based censorship.” I have seen them set rules to stop harassment and abuse. And I have seen you prefer to harass and abuse people. And then, as a weird bit of cognitive dissonance, insist that your abuse and harassment can’t possibly be abuse and harassment, and therefore it must be “viewpoint-based censorship.”
You’re wrong.
This is, again, a total misrepresentation of what I said. I said that a private company has the right to enforce its own rules in an effort to encourage the type of community it wishes to enable. And it’s that right that enables more free speech, because without it, fewer companies would be willing to host speech, because very few companies want to deal with constant abuse and harassment.
You, an admitted abuser and harasser, just can’t take the fact that people call you on your shit, and you’ve had to face consequences on it. You’re a little snowflake who can’t take it that the marketplace of ideas has rejected your ideas.
You’re everything you claim to hate. And you’re too pathetic to even recognize that.
Re: Re: Re:
False. For one thing, this part:
…is a complete misrepresentation. It was never about which opinions he hates or supports. It’s about removing content the community for that particular platform finds too objectionable, which will allow anyone in that community to speak more. Spread that across multiple platforms with diverse communities, and the result is more speech on the internet from everyone, not just those whose opinions are considered okay by one particular person or group.
Moreover, again, this is support for the right to engage in viewpoint discrimination by privately-owned online platforms, not support for any particular exercise of such discrimination by such platforms. The difference is between supporting the general idea vs. a specific act or party within that general idea, particularly above others.
So, again, where is the citation for your claim that Mike specifically favored Twitter’s viewpoint discrimination due to the viewpoint favored/disfavored by Twitter, rather than for Twitter’s moderation for reasons unconnected to such discrimination (or where such discrimination was minimized) or for the general principle of viewpoint discrimination regardless of which viewpoints are favored/disfavored? Again, the critical part is to show Mike favoring viewpoint discrimination solely or primarily due to the specific viewpoint discriminated against or in favor of.
Paradoxes do exist. While it may be counterintuitive that private platforms engaging in such viewpoint-based “censorship” would lead to more speech and larger diversity in the larger ecosystem (and possibly more speech on that particular platform as well), but that doesn’t mean it’s false.
It’s like how spending money can increase one’s wealth under certain circumstances: it’s counterintuitive, but it is still true.
Re:
Well there’s two stamps on my Brainwashed Conservative Talking Points Bingo card.
It’s funny how you get so upset about the term “Nazi” being used colloquially (i.e. I’m sure you’re not actually a card-carrying member of a Nazi party) but you think you can take the term “woke” and the college-level legal course named CRT, distort them well beyond original meanings, and apply them to anything you hate (another of your faves), due mainly to gross ignorance and bigotry.
'If I can't scream at you in your house I have been censored!'
‘But don’t you see, if I can’t say whatever I want wherever I want, against the property owners wishes and with no consequences for what I’ve said that’s no different than someone being thrown in jail by the government!’
The sense of self-entitlement by the ‘I have been silenced!’ crowd is really quiet staggering when you think about it, all the more so given how quick they are to switch from decrying ‘government meddling’ when it’s telling them to do something to being all for as much ‘meddling’ as possible when it comes to imposing their will on others.
Re:
It’s less surprising when you realize that the only thing they want to do is to seize others’ property for themselves, silence dissent, reestablish the Confederacy and bring back slave ownership…
Oh, and something something the Jews are no longer welcome in America.
Re: Re:
From “To Kill A Mockingbird”:
The time this played in was maybe a century ago, but then if we want to rewind history to Confederate times, who knows what we’ll end up with.
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Re:
You would have a point (but a poor one, as a public platform is not a home. Tell me, does Twitter have to bake them the cake, too?) if there wasn’t any government involvement, but there absolutely was.
Re: Re:
I’m sadly unsurprised that you are wrong about public accommodation (ie, Twitter can’t prevent anyone from making an account or viewing the site, and even then, I believe that’s not entirely applicable here), what a public space is (Twitter is not funded by taxpayer money last I checked), and what constitutes government involvement (what was that Standard you refuse to acknowledge again? Something about the government needing to actually threaten a private company into compliance with their demands, which was NOT shown anywhere).
But then again, you ARE also harassing, lying, gaslighting and otherwise trying to force Mike and the team into praising Musk and the white supremacists…
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Re: Re: Re:
I said “public” not “public space” and “public space” doesn’t even usually mean “owned by the public” and I just stopped reading there cuz apparently you were committed to being stupid and feeling superior about it.
Re: Re: Re:2
No wonder you keep getting it wrong, you don’t read anything!
Re: Re:
It’s a privately owned platform that’s available to the public, dingus. If you can’t follow the rules, they’ll shut you up, but, and here’s the part you can’t seem to wrap your head around, you’re free to go be a prick somewhere else. To put it simply, you haven’t been censored.
Re: Re: Re:
That’s like saying “you’re free to go burn crosses somewhere else”. It isn’t the same without someone getting the message. Conservative values deserve an audience.
Re: Re: Re:2
That audience shouldn’t be forced into hearing that message.
Re: Re: Re:3
I don’t want to put words in their mouth but based upon the rest of the comment I’m guessing they meant that those espousing ‘conservative values’ think that they deserve an audience, not that they actually do.
Re: Re: Re:4
Fair enough.
Re: Re: Re:4
With “audience” being a euphemism for “victim”. Frankly, I keep getting surprised when I am impersonating the devil just how much of my show and dance fails to raise a double take.
Re: Re: Re:5
Such is the problem with parody poes and sarcasm in the modern day, there’s so many people who are legitimately crazy and/or evil that it’s become all but impossible to make a comment that couldn’t conceivably have been said with all sincerity and with a straight face by one of them.
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Re: Re: Re:
Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the cebsor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant.
Re: Re: Re:2
Welcome to Coneria!
(Now get the fuck out, you Nazi bitch.)
Re: Re: Re:2
And how does not being able to speak on Twitter silence you?
Like I said, it doesn’t stop someone from spouting their nonsense somewhere else.
So, again, it’s not censorship.
Re: Re:
Jeebers, the stupidity, it hurts! Referring to any social media platform as a “public platform” is right up there with sovereign citizens and bleach injection. It puts you right back into Poe’s Law contention.
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Re:
Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. It is irrelevant whether the silenced have the ability to speak elsewhere. It is irrelevant that the censors have the legal right to censor.
Re: Re:
Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views
Me: Holy shit! You were censored for wanting lower taxes?
Con: LOL no…no not those views
Me: So…deregulation?
Con: Haha no not those views either
Me: Which views, exactly?
Con: Oh, you know the ones
(All credit to Twitter user @ndrew_lawrence.)
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Re: Re: Re:
So you think having conversations with yourself is an argument?
Re: Re: Re:2
Well, what viewpoints has social media actually censored, Matt?
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Re: Re: Re:
People can only ever be the sex of their bodies.
Sex and gender are the same.
Schools should not hide the mental illness of children from their parents.
Gods don’t exist.
Black people commit crime in numbers mush larger than their share of the population.
Illegal aliens should be deported.
Re: Re: Re:2
Not in dispute.
Only under some definitions. In others, the two are different. Do you have evidence that that specific opinion was being “censored”, without something else?
First, being transgender isn’t, in itself, a mental illness.
Second, it should be hidden if the school has reason to believe that the parents would react abusively towards the child over it or if both a) the child says not to and b) the mental illness will likely not be detrimental to others or to the child’s physical well-being.
Third, where is that particular claim being censored?
Again, where is that being censored?
It depends, but in the general sense, probably, but only after due process is met and only if it is done humanely.
Also, this once again falls under the “Where is this being censored?” question, just like everything else you brought up.
Re: Re:
Freedom of speech is not freedom of reach, Hyman.
Even those fine conservative spaces you were booted from know that.
Take your Reddit-level stupidity and shove it up or ass.
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Re: Re: Re:
Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing opinions based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant.
Freedom of speech is the ability (not the right) to speak without being silenced for a viewpoint of which the owner of the platform does not approve. When a platform owner silences a speaker on their platform based on the viewpoint of the opinion, the owner is depriving the speaker of free speech on that platform, regardless of whether the owner is legally permitted to do that and regardless of whether the speaker can go elsewhere to speak.
Re: Re: Re:2
No. No, it is not.
Quit whining like a child because every platform tells you to fuck off for being a bigot. You’re not owed spots on those platforms and their telling you to fuck off isn’t censorship.
Re: Re: Re:2
If I get tossed out of a bar for unruly behavior and added to a physical “Do not allow entry” list for my behavior, I am not unhindered in my ability to visit bars.
However, if I get tossed out of every bar in the city, I am hindered in my ability to visit bars, but that’s because I was an unruly asshole. And not because any of my rights to visit bars was violated.
Hyman, you are the unruly asshole here. Just because the owner refuses to actually kick you out doesn’t mean you have the privilege of harassing us.
Re: Re: Re:2
…said nobody literate, ever.
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Mike Masnik is a coward
I served 4 years in jail for the exercise of free speech, on the premise that I embarrassed a woman on the internet.
Yet, you’re clearly building a strawman. The Government asked companies to censor for them on their behalf, while at the same time carrying a carrot and a stick.
Re: failure of sympathy gland
No doubt, and that is probably an evil.
The problem here is that you present with a name very similar to the guy in Oregon who was the first person done there for ``revenge porn”. It would be hard to find people who can present cogent arguments for why we should approve of such a thing. The best I can imagine is a general disapproval of government content controls.
Still, a lot of people disapprove of ``revenge porn” due to the harm done to people other than the person posting it. There are some reservations expressed as to the invasion of privacy of the person or persons unwillingly publicly depicted.
If yhou want to get our sympathy, you should probably pick a different login name there. Even that is not guaranteed to work: my sympathy gland was crushed in a road accident some years ago and so I am pretty much always grumpy now.
Re:
If you are indeed THE Benjamin Jay Barber, Revenge Porn asshole, and apparently a crazy SovCitter…
Even the trash fires don’t like you and want you to get lost.
So, where’s the evidence then? I can point to actual examples where MY COUNTRY did it. Where are the ones for the US?
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Re:
lol, get fucked straight normie.
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