Did The 5th Circuit Just Make It So That Wikipedia Can No Longer Be Edited In Texas?

from the bang-up-job,-andy dept

I wrote up an initial analysis of the 5th Circuit’s batshit crazy ruling re-instating Texas’s social media content moderation law last week. I have another analysis of it coming out shortly in another publication (I’ll then write about it here). A few days ago, Prof. Eric Goldman did his own analysis as well, which is well worth reading. It breaks out a long list of just flat-out errors made by Judge Andy Oldham. It’s kind of embarrassing.

But there is one point in the piece that seemed worth calling out and highlighting. There is something of an open question as to what platforms technically fall under Texas’ law. The law defines “social media platform” as follows:

“Social media platform” means an Internet website or application that is open to the public, allows a user to create an account, and enables users to communicate with other users for the primary purpose of posting information, comments, messages, or images. The term does not include:

(A) an Internet service provider as defined by Section 324.055
(B) electronic mail; or
(C) an online service, application, or website:

(i) that consists primarily of news, sports, entertainment, or other information or content that is not user generated but is preselected by the provider; and
(ii) for which any chat, comments, or interactive functionality is incidental to, directly related to, or dependent on the provision of the content described by Subparagraph (i)

The operative “anti-censorship” provision only applies to such social media platforms that have “more than 50 million active users in the United States in a calendar month.” Leaving aside that no one really knows how many active users they truly have, the definition above sweeps in a lot more companies than people realize.

In its filings in the case, Texas had claimed that the only companies covered by the law were Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. Judge Andy Oldham, in his ridiculous ruling, stated that “the plaintiff trade associations represent all the Platforms covered by HB 20.”

But, from the definition above, that’s clearly false. First off, it’s not even clear if Twitter actually qualifies. As we’ve learned (oh so painfully), Twitter no longer even reports its “monthly active users,” but instead chooses to release its “monetizable daily active users” which is not even close to the same thing. When it last did post info on its monthly active users, apparently it was only 38 million — meaning it might not even be subject to the anti-censorship provisions of the law!

But also, there are other platforms which are not members of either trade association, and yet still qualify under the definition above. Law professor Daphne Keller put together a list of public information on internet company sizes for Senate testimony earlier this year, and it’s a useful guide.

One name that stands out: Wikipedia. According to Keller’s estimate, it has more than 97 million monthly active users on the site. It meets the definition under the law. It’s a website that is open to the public, allows a user to create an account and enables users to communicate with other users for the primary purpose of posting information, comments, messages, or images.

It doesn’t meet any of the exceptions. It’s not an ISP. It does not provide email. It does not consist “primarily” about news, sports, entertainment or “other information or content that is not user generated.” Wikipedia is all user generated. And the interactive nature of the site is not incidental to the service. It’s the whole point.

So… Wikipedia qualifies.

Now… how does Wikipedia comply?

Under the law, Wikipedia cannot “censor” based on “the viewpoint of the user.” But, Wikipedia is constantly edited by users. Even if you were to claim that a user chose to edit an entry because of the “viewpoint” of the content, how would Wikipedia even prevent that?

Wikipedia must also create (I’m already laughing) an email address where users can send complaints and a whole “complaint system.”

I don’t see how that can happen.

Anyway, it’s possible this means that Wikipedia can no longer stop people from adding more and more content (true or not) to Judge Andy Oldham’s profile, because having users take it down would potentially violate the law (but don’t do that: vandalizing Wikipedia is always bad, even if you’re trying to make a point).

The entire law is based on the idea that all moderation takes place by the company itself, and not by users.

It’s also possible that Reddit is swept up under the law (it’s unclear if they have enough US users, but it’s close), and again, I don’t see how it can comply. Moderation there is multi-layered, but there is user voting, which certainly might be based on viewpoints. There are admin level moderation decisions (so, under this law, Reddit might not have been able to ban a bunch of abusive subreddits). But, each subreddit has its own rules and its own moderators. Will individual subreddit moderation run afoul of this law? Can subreddits even still operate?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No one knows!

Discord might also be close to the trigger line and again, I don’t see how it could comply, since each Discord server has its own administrators and moderators.

On Twitter, someone noted that the job board, Indeed.com claims to have over 250 million unique visitors every month. That was as of 2020, yet some more recent numbers show it much higher, with the latest monthly numbers (from May of this year) showing over 650 million visits. Visits and users are not the same, but it’s not difficult to see how that turns into over 50 million active users in the US.

And… that creates more problems, as the lawyer noted to me on Twitter, if someone now posts a job opening on Indeed that violates the EEOC by saying certain races shouldn’t apply, well, under the Texas law, Indeed would have to leave that ad up (though, under the EEOC they’d have to take it down).

This just part of the reason we have a dormant commerce clause in the Constitution that should have gotten this law tossed even earlier, but alas…

Anyway, if the law does actually go into effect, we’re going to discover lots of nonsense like this. But that’s because the Texas legislature, the Texas executive branch, and foolish judges like Andy Oldham don’t actually understand any of this. They’re just real angry that Donald Trump got banned from Twitter for being an ass.

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Companies: discord, indeed, reddit, wikipedia

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Comments on “Did The 5th Circuit Just Make It So That Wikipedia Can No Longer Be Edited In Texas?”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I don’t give a micron of a shit about your fucking ethnicity.

You worship white people to the point you became a white supremacist/NeoNazi and while I don’t buy into the race traitor nonsense, YOU arguing for your ethnicity’s extermination makes YOU defending a natìve minority all the more hypocritical.

Get out, and go fuck yourself. You will not be missed, ever.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

And you defend fascist laws and shit.

Maybe America should have just given Texas to the Empire of Mexico even before the Alamo. Davy Crockett would have fucking slapped your jaw so hard it would dislocate if he realized he sacrificed his life for fascist enablers like YOU.

I won’t cry for you once you get fucking shot for being a white supremacist worshipper. It WILL happen once they finally murder everyone elsen they don’t like.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Like a certain other troll who keeps whining about white racists inbetween his inane ramblings about common carriers and Internet on-ramps, Chozen wants desperately to believe that opposition to his views is about his race/ethnic heritage rather than his views being a bigger pile of shit than Morbius. It’s the only way he can justify wallowing in his own ignorance.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Democracy

Honestly only read the end. That’s democracy. Don’t confuse should with could.

You and your big tech overloads should have gone the statute route a long long time ago because this was fundamentally a regulatory issue not a Constitutional one. Instead you wanted to carve out a set of Constitutional rights that applied to BigTech and only BigTech, so you went that direction. Now that damn is breaking because much like abortion it was never a Constitutionally defendable position.

Now you are decades behind on the statutory approach just like abortions supports.

You should have legislated this when you had the chance.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

At this point, if I was Twitter/Facebook/whoever, I would just block Texas, and make sure everybody knows why. It would be massive overreach for Texas to try to force a company to do business there.

Then, Democracy in action, Texas citizens can let their representatives know if they have a problem with this.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

We can block sports based on geographic markets.

No, we can’t. We can pretend to. IP-based geolocation is often accurate to the country level, sometimes even the city, but it’s also known to frequently give wrong results—sometimes absurdly wrong. Paid services can use a credit-card billing address, for customers with credit cards (which a lot of Americans don’t have). But especially with electronic billing, credit card companies have little ability to verify an address. They might know that the person once received mail—the card itself—sent to that address within the last few years. That could’ve been the address of a friend or family member, or just a “disguised P.O. box” service (that lets customers write “apartment” or “suite” instead of “box”, because some companies won’t ship to boxes).

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The platforms don’t need to get it exact, I imagine removing any physical presence from the state and making clear that no-one living there is allowed to use their service alongside taking reasonable steps like geofencing would be enough to remove any standing the state would have to drag them into court, since at that point any texas users would be making use of the platform/service in direct violation to the site’s wishes rather than in accordance with them.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: That's an Interesting One

The act makes it illegal for BigTech to geolock users. So you could get a scenario where a large social media geolocks Texas. Texans sue in Texas state court. Social Media loses massive judgement. Texans execute judgement at large international banks. Social Media who insists they don’t do business in Texas finds all their bank accounts empty.

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Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Do you not see how absolutely fucked up this law is? No matter what happens, you get sued. 50 mil users might seem a lot, but comparing that to the size of Twitter and Facebook, it is comparable to crumbs. That isn’t the average of Big Tech companies. That is the average of most companies on the Internet. This is what happens you legislate with revenge. You throw logic out and only legislate with emotion and all you get is disaster.

Do you seriously still think this is fair or do you just like the sound of wind through your head? In situations like this, we all lose. Now get off your damned high horse, you daft cunt.

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Eldakka (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The act makes it illegal for BigTech to geolock users. So you could get a scenario where a large social media geolocks Texas. Texans sue in Texas state court.

If the compamny has no presence in Texas, and it prevents Texas-based users from accessing the site, then a Texas court would lack standing to hear such a case. The best that Texas could do would be to take it up with a federal court, but then, they’d lose diversity and no federal law would be being broken to pursue the case in Federal Court. This would be the exact same situation as Texas (I think it was) trying to sue another state over how that state operates its federal election process and the federal court tossing it because there was no diversity or federal law at issue.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Nope. Lack of jurisdiction by the original state court (and state law) renders full faith and credit moot. Texas doesn’t have the right to compel non-Texans to operate in Texas, nor Texans to remain in the state against their will without due process of law. You can’t enforce an unconstitutional law that seeks to punish out of jurisdiction actions by out of state actors.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The act makes it illegal for BigTech to geolock users.

Theoretical situation:

Texas proposes a law that, for some reason, McDonalds doesn’t like. McDonalds says that if that law passes, it will close all of its Texas stores. Texas adds a provision to the law that makes it illegal for all fast food chains to close their Texas stores, and passes the law.

Does Texas have the power to do this? If they do, that’s both silly and scary at the same time. If they don’t, then why would they have the power to do something similar to Twitter?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The act makes it illegal for BigTech to geolock users.

Except it can’t. That would violate interstate commerce, which is under federal jurisdiction. The supremacy clause makes this unconstitutional.

And Texans don’t have the standing to sue a company that doesn’t operate in Texas for not operating in Texas. For this law to be constitutional, it would have to be legal for a state to force a person to relocate to that state, which is a violation of the due process clause.

So you could get a scenario where a large social media geolocks Texas. Texans sue in Texas state court. Social Media loses massive judgement. Texans execute judgement at large international banks. Social Media who insists they don’t do business in Texas finds all their bank accounts empty.

And then the law gets declared unconstitutional and it’s just a waste of time and a Republican voter pandering episode.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

this was fundamentally a regulatory issue not a Constitutional one

Except it isn’t. Let the government control these “large” platforms, and they’ll soon turn their sights to smaller ones⁠—ones that will either comply or shut down due to fear of being slapped with a lawsuit or some other government order.

For what reason should Twitter, Discord, a Mastodon instance, or even BestNetTech be forced into giving a platform to you, me, or any other American idiot?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Could or Should?

Should or Could? You confuse these two terms. The Communications Act of 1934 gives immense regulatory power over all communications wired and airwaves. That power has through multiple acts been delegated to the states.

How exactly does “Twitter, Discord, a Mastodon instance, or even BestNetTech” fall outside wired or airwave communication? How exactly does it work? ESP?

Could the state? Absolutely. Should the state? Well that is a debate we need to have. But as long as the Mike’s of the world are the dunk guys on the lawnmower screaming “I know my rights. I know my rights.” We cant have that democratic dialogue we need.

Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Okay, what acts that legislate control to the states? Care to elaborate? Because last time I checked that the Comm act legislate control to the FCC, the Federal Communication Commission. I will repeat: Federal. As in not by states, but by the Federal government. The regulations are allocated to the utility of telephone lines, methods of communication, but not the communication itself. And the last time the Act has been updated was in 1996, the year the internet was born.

Just because the states or the government could have the power to moderate what to say or not to say on Twitter or Facebook, doesn’t mean it should.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I believe 1996 is the year that the internet became available to the general public and not just a playtoy of academics.

“The World is an Internet service provider originally headquartered in Brookline, Massachusetts. It was the first commercial ISP in the world that provided a direct connection to the internet, with its first customer logging on in November 1989.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_(Internet_service_provider)

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 God Damn IT

God damn it you are a genius!!! Here I have been wasting my professional life trying to comply with state Public Utility Commissions. All I had to do was come to Tech Dirt and find out that all those state PUCs I’ve been dealing with since my 20s were unconstitutional!

SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU FUCKING IGNORANT MORON.

You are just another manchild with no real life experience.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 ManChild

If Mike’s misfits want ot stop being called Manchild show me that you have some real life experience. It oozes on this forum that all of you are losers and don’t understand simple concept that those who work in the real world deal with every day like regulation, licensing, plat maps 😉 etc. deal with.

The reason I first stumbled upon you group of ManChildren was Mike saying that you cant regulate social media as a common carrier because its not exactly like current common carriers. It became clear that Mike has never had a real job. As P.E. I’m regulated under my states board of Engineers, Architects, and Land Surveyors. BigTech is closer to a phone carrier than I am to a Land Surveyors. Only a Manchild would be that ignorant.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Being a public engineer is nothing like running, maintaining and moderating the Internet, NEONAZI.

In fact, even a public Usenet board/forum would be like a privately-owned building opening it’s first floor to the public. Or Disneyland opening its park to the public.

This isn’t about following food safety rules, OSHA or the myriad of annoyances engineers have to follow to keep the majority of shitty people safe from themselves, this is about free speech and private entitles being allowed to associate with whomever they want to.

And corporate censorship is another thing altogether.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Its better than the alternative we have today where there are weekly censorship meetings with the government. Meetings that by his own posts Mike has shown he was fully aware of. That is what fascism really is. BigTech is the closest thing the west has seen to a fascist corporate since the colonial trading companies.

In your head criminalizing actual fascism is fascism.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Its better than the alternative we have today where there are weekly censorship meetings with the government.

Yes or no: Can you definitively prove that Twitter holds weekly meetings with agents of the federal government, possibly including the top of the Executive Branch, for the sole and specific purpose of discussing what speech will and will not be banned from the service in the span of a given week?

If “yes”: For what reason does no other social media service hold those meetings with the government, and for what reason is no other social media service (regardless of size) held to the same standards as Twitter?

Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Genuine Question

Why are you here? If you think we’re all cesspools here, why are you even here? Why bother arguing with everyone? To get that brief high of being right? If you have such a high position, why are you wasting your time here with your petty squabbles? There’s more to life than this little screen, so I’m going to be blunt:

Go touch some grass, you genuine loser.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

If you think we’re all cesspools here, why are you even here?

He comes off like a Christian missionary: He considers it a high holy duty, handed down by God, to educate people whom he considers either his lessers or the intellectually disabled.

Considering how fanatical he seems every time he posts here, and how much worse he’s gotten over the years, I’m probably not too far off… 👀

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Cry moar bro

Oh this is the part where it gets upset and starts yelling insults because to quote “You are just another manchild with no real life experience.”

Next up are the sexual threats followed by the physical ones.
After that it will go sulk in a corner for a few months until it builds it’s self esteem back up only to start the cycle all over again.

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nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

How exactly does “Twitter, Discord, a Mastodon instance, or even BestNetTech” fall outside wired or airwave communication? How exactly does it work?

They work by passing packets to ISPs, which then transmit them. The FCC regulates the transmission part, which Twitter etc. aren’t responsible for.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Should or Could? You confuse these two terms.

No, I don’t.

The Communications Act of 1934 gives immense regulatory power over all communications wired and airwaves. That power has through multiple acts been delegated to the states.

So what? They don’t (yet) have the power to tell Twitter “host this specific speech or prepare to be punished for it”.

Should the state? Well that is a debate we need to have.

Most rational people would say “no, the government shouldn’t have the right to force a privately owned platform to host speech it doesn’t want to host”. But you’re not a rational person, are you, Mr. Rape is Funny.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

If it wouldn’t just be doubling down on the damage and helping to normalize it I would be tempted to wish that more democrat leaning states would jump into the game as well and start talking about forcing the likes of Trump social to host any and all pro-Biden/LGBTQ/non-christian content that anyone wants to post, just to see the ‘the government has a right to force social media to host content!’ lot do a complete 180 and start screaming about the ‘free market’ and how the government has no business requiring speech be hosted.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Common Carrier

“So what? They don’t (yet) have the power to tell Twitter “host this specific speech or prepare to be punished for it”.”

They just declared Twitter a common carrier so yes they do. A common carrier is whatever the government says it is. Common carrier is a regulatory framework that was adopted from maritime law that has been used to regulate everything from shipping to communications. Its a regulatory framework that works very well.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

They just declared Twitter a common carrier so yes they do.

Even if the Fifth Circuit did that, the ruling doesn’t become wholly binding legal precedent until the case is fully adjudicated. I imagine an appeal of this ruling will happen sooner rather than later.

Common carrier is a regulatory framework that was adopted from maritime law that has been used to regulate everything from shipping to communications.

Other than the Fifth Circuit’s ridiculous-ass decision that ignores a goddamn century’s worth of First Amendment caselaw, is there any law or binding legal precedent that says Twitter is a common carrier?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

How useful is your phone, and how much junk mail do you get in your mail box? Lack of hate speech via those channels mails mainly due to the cost and time involved sending to individual numbers or mail addresses, a limitation that does not exist with social media. and which will be multiplied on social media if it is forced to act as a common carrier.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

They just declared Twitter a common carrier so yes they do.

Would you use social media to call an ambulance? Because that would mean social media would have to give special treatment to those services in order to save lives.

And while that would be great, we already have actual common carriers. It’s called Landlines and ISPs.

Common carrier is a regulatory framework that was adopted from maritime law that has been used to regulate everything from shipping to communications.

And a social network is not like a fucking merchant clipper/container ship, nor is a social network a fucking road, nor is a social network an ISP. And no, you can’t use AWS et al as an example, because AWS et al and the folks who sell server space and whatnot are closer to being a road and that’s a different fucking conversation.

I repeat. A social network is not a road. That would be the fucking fiber/copper lines and the ISP granting access to the social network. IRC is not a road. That would, again, bethe fucking fiber/copper lines and the ISP granting access to the IRC server. Forums are not a road. That would, again, bethe fucking fiber/copper lines and the ISP granting access to the forum, barring any additional fees to gain access to said forum. Usenet threads are not a road. That would, again, bethe fucking fiber/copper lines and the ISP granting access to the IRC server. Email lists are not a road. That would, again, bethe fucking fiber/copper lines and the ISP granting access to the IRC server, and the email service provider.

Youtube? Same fucking thing. WordPress blog? This site? Google and search engines? Same fucking thing.

A common carrier is whatever the government says it is.

I know about how politicians are assholes and all as well. So it’s entirely possible that they ignore prior precedent and even the the Constitution if need be, to ensure what they want gets passed. It happens ALL THE TIME in Singapore.

But hey, you’re the one supporting these NeoNazis.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Wired or airewave. How exactly does social media work if it doesn’t use wired or airwave communication?

“Except telephone lines are a public utility”

Until the law makes them as such.

In the case you like to cite Halleck those cable lines were privately owned by Time Warner. MNN the defendant used those lines owned by Time Warner. Yet at no time in the decision the Gorsuch question the State’s right to regulate MNN.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Wired or airewave. How exactly does social media work if it doesn’t use wired or airwave communication?

Why is your house not public property because its uses public property, the roads, to allow you and visitors to come and go. Just because social media uses the services of common carriers when someone posts something, and as a separate transaction, someone else looks at that post, doe not mean its is a common carrier. Social media lacks the core characteristic of a common carrier, that is accepting something for delivery to somewhere, rather it receives posts for display on a its notice board.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Not Dodging at All

Im not dodging at all. I’m framing it appropriately. When we got back to Mike’s favorite case of all time Halleck. The service provider was MMN. The cable was owned by Time Warner. At the very most the amount of “public” involvement in the distribution of the communication was that some portion of the cable may have been buried in a public utility easement. But the court didn’t even look at that nor did the court care.

The issue is if the private property was put to the public interest. Once private property is put to the public interest it the property is subject to regulation to the extent of that interest. If the owner wishes to remove their property from that regulation they need only remove their property from the public interest.

When I rent a portion of my home I place my private property to the public interest as such I am suddenly subject to pages upon pages of regulation.

You don’t understand this because you are a manchild. You have never owned your own property. You have never rented property. You have never done anything in your life to qualify you to understand what you are speaking about have you? You are a loser like all of Mike’s Misfits.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Once private property is put to the public interest it the property is subject to regulation to the extent of that interest.

And as Halleck put it:

A private entity … who opens its property for speech by others is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor.

The state can regulate a lot of things about a public accomodation business, but it can’t force that business to carry (or not carry) any and all legal speech.

I rent a portion of my home I place my private property to the public interest as such I am suddenly subject to pages upon pages of regulation

The point of the original question is that, absent something such as you becoming a landlord within your own home, your property is private property even if you can only reach it through public property (e.g., roads). Barring the landlord-in-your-own-home situation, what makes your property any more private than, say, a privately owned public accomodation business, such that the government can force speech onto one type of private property but not another?

You have never done anything in your life to qualify you to understand what you are speaking about have you?

Your projection only hurts you, Chozen. Have you tried picking up a hobby? Maybe look into craft brewing.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Twitter is even closer to a private club, it accepts for membership anybody who agree to the club regulations, known as the TOS, and like any club can rescind membership of anybody who breaks the rules after joining. What is is not is a common carrier, because when you hand it a tweet, it is for posting on twitter, and not an item to carried to a destination and delivered.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Under the law, Wikipedia cannot “censor” based on “the viewpoint of the user.” But, Wikipedia is constantly edited by users. Even if you were to claim that a user chose to edit an entry because of the “viewpoint” of the content, how would Wikipedia even prevent that?

Do they need to prevent that? The law says “A social media platform may not” do certain things. It doesn’t say they have to prevent their independent users from doing those things.

This post does state “The entire law is based on the idea that all moderation takes place by the company itself”, but does not explain why anyone thinks “the company” could be impacted by independent decisions. Perhaps they’d be affected (assuming this law is federally constitutional) if those decisions were not truly independent, e.g. if a company were dictating moderation rules or rewarding/punishing moderation decisions. Does Wikimedia do any of this?

It doesn’t meet any of the exceptions. […] It does not provide email.

“Providing email” is not the exception—email itself is. So, Wikimedia could not simply provide email service to make the website exempt. (And they do, by the way, provide email service, though not to the general public.)

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Need to keep the entry up to date and accurate after all

Someone needs to add a line to the wikepdia entry for Texas…

‘Texas, one of several states that either doesn’t understand or holds a raging hatred for the first amendment, and has engaged in legislative efforts to put their ignorance and/or hatred into practice…’

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